LIFE TO THE FULL w/ Nancy Campbell

EPISODE 252: Dealing with Childhood Cancer

Courtney Mount joins me today as she shares the heart-rending story of their two-year Millie (their ninth child), who was diagnosed with Stage 4 Neuroblastoma, an aggressive childhood cancer.

Announcer: Welcome to the podcast, Life to The Full, with Nancy Campbell, founder and publisher of Above Rubies.

Nancy Campbell: Hello, loveliest ladies! I always love being with you. Today I have an unexpected guest. I didn’t know she was going to be with me. Her name is Courtney. We only met just a little while ago. My dear friend, Pam Fields, who lives over in Exeter, Tennessee. . . you’re about two-and-a-half hours away, aren’t you?

Pam: Right.

Nancy: Well, she called me and said, “I’d love you to meet my friend, Courtney. Can you meet me at the café?” “The café? Of course!” That’s the Trim Healthy Mama Café. That’s where we always meet. Any time we have to meet someone, the greatest place is at the THM Café. I said, “OK, I’ll be there!”

We got together at lunchtime today. Courtney told me her story. Well, sadly, I was a mess. But her story touched my life so much, I said, “Courtney, you’ve got to come home, and we’ve got to do a podcast together.” So, here we are! God is so good to put it all together. In fact, I think you drove to Pam’s place about 11 hours to get to her, didn’t you?

Courtney: That’s exactly right.

Nancy: This is Courtney speaking. She’s actually on her way to Virginia. So, Pam, tell us how this all came to pass.

Pam: It was kind of a funny thing. Courtney and I met online. She was driving through, and said, “How about we meet for coffee?” I said, “I’d love to meet for coffee.” She said, “How about we meet at the Trim Healthy Café?” I said, “Well, we can do that, but it’s about two-and-a-half hours.”

So, meeting for coffee turned into, “Why don’t you stop at my house, and you can spend the night in my guestroom?” It turned into two nights and this whole café adventure. Now, here we are! It’s all adventure! So much fun!

Nancy: Great having you with us too, Pam. Pam has done more than one podcast. I think we’ve done a couple together in the past, haven’t we? Pam also does her own podcast called “The Mom Next Door.”

Pam: “The Mom Next Door: Stories of Faith.”

Nancy: You can check that out. She interviews mothers and all their most incredible stories. You’ll love her podcast too.

So, Courtney, let’s get to know you. You’re the mother of nine children and about to be seven grandchildren.

Courtney: Yes. So very blessed. Ranging from six all the way to 32. And grandbabies from 14 all the way down to one due in April.

Nancy: I think you had quite a few of your own babies with your grandbabies, didn’t you? Tell us about that.

Courtney: Absolutely. I delivered baby number six and my daughter delivered baby number one. I delivered number seven; she had number two. Number eight; she had number three. Number nine; she had number four. It was fun to have grandchildren and children at the same time.

Nancy: I think that’s so amazing! I always dreamed of that happening myself, but it didn’t quite work out. I think there can’t be anything more exciting than having your own baby and having a grandbaby at the same time. They just become such wonderful friends. It’s so wonderful.

So, you started off as a young mom. You had three children very close, didn’t you?

Courtney: Yes. Absolutely. I had my first two children as a teenager. Had my third one at 21 and the world encouraged us to take care of that and not have any more children. We had a vasectomy. I prayed and prayed that the Lord would change my husband’s heart. Every night I would lay my hand on his chest and silently pray but not tell him about it.

About four years into that, he said, “I think I need to have a reversal.” He was very concerned and afraid of going back under the knife. But at the five-year mark, he did have the reversal. Almost a year to the day of that surgery, we had our number four baby at the six-year mark.

Nancy: Oh, that’s so wonderful! You never regret having that reversal, I’m sure.

Courtney: Absolutely not. Those children have been such a joy.

Nancy: Yes. And then, we come to your last little one, number nine. That turned out to be quite a story. Maybe you could tell us about her. You called her Millie, didn’t you?

Courtney: I did call her Millie. When I was pregnant with Millie, I was 42. I didn’t know she would be my last baby, but I was pretty sure she was my last baby. I went to the doctor, and they did an ultrasound. They did some more ultrasounds, an advanced ultrasound. I asked them, why so many ultrasounds? They told me I was elderly, so that was pretty humorous at that time, because I didn’t feel elderly! I had all these little children.

Millie’s birth was perfect. She came very quickly. She breastfed well. She was a healthy, happy little girl who never had any issues until her second birthday. At that time, she started crying a lot. She didn’t sleep well, just very unhappy. I took her to the doctor sometime during that spring, and the doctor said, “Well, she might be getting over an ear infection. It doesn’t really look like much is wrong.”

Two weeks go by. We go back to the doctor. “Well, maybe she’s been sick, but she looks like she’s doing better.” Every time we took her, she wasn’t well, but she wasn’t sick.

In May of 2019, we went to the Grand Canyon. We took 15 members of our family in three carloads out there for the family trip of a lifetime. While we were there, she fevered every night for about an hour or two. It wasn’t a high fever, 99, just enough that as a mom of nine children, I would think, well, maybe she was teething. Maybe it was just a normal thing. But by the next morning, she was fine again.

I called her doctor, who said, when you get back in town, bring her in. We got back to Oklahoma and took her to the doctor. We put her on the table, and she looked fine again.

Nancy: It’s amazing, isn’t it, how long it can take to really find out what’s happening.

Courtney: It is. And it never seemed like she really was sick. It actually seemed like she was an unhappy child. At that point, that doctor handed me a lab slip and said, “If she continues to feel bad, you need to go get labs done, but for now she’s fine. Don’t worry about it.” I went home, continued on.

Two weeks later, I had a meeting at my home with two of my dear friends. We sat on my couch, and I shared my concerns. I said, “I don’t know what to do with this baby. Something is not right.” They prayed over me that I would have wisdom. They prayed that the doctor would see what was going on.

I walked them to the car, and as they came back, Millie was up in the middle of my bed, with her hand pressed to her stomach, crying, “Oh, my tummy hurts!” That was the night that we decided we would take her to Urgent Care. From Urgent Care, they sent us to the emergency room. We left the emergency room at 3 AM that morning, being referred to Children’s Hospital. In our area, Children’s Hospital was a long wait. However, Children’s Hospital called the next day and scheduled her to come right in. So, we knew it was something serious. We just didn’t know what.

Nancy: Wow! So, what happened when you went in the next day?

Courtney: We got to the Children’s Hospital. They sent us to the liver specialist, who looked her over and said, “She looks great,” of course. She did look good. She said, “Maybe she has food allergies.” So, I left that doctor’s office texting my church prayer chain that it looks like it’s food allergies.

Then I texted the same thing to my husband, but said, “They also want to do an ultrasound and some bloodwork, so you need to meet me at the hospital, and we’ll do those things together.” I went downstairs and did the ultrasound. The tech was very chatty and happy, but after a few moments, she just got deathly silent.

I said, “If there’s something I need to know, you need to tell me today. Let me see a doctor,” because we lived so far away. She asked us to wait in the waiting room. My husband joined me about that point. Things get really fuzzy right about that point in the story.

A doctor came out, and at some point, said either, “You need to go upstairs to the tenth floor,” or maybe he said, “You need to go to the Oncology Department.” But Nancy, I’m not sure I knew what oncology was.

By the time I got in the elevator, I was calling my friend, who was asking me, “Where are you going?” “The tenth floor.” I knew her little boy had cancer. He had leukemia. She said, “Who is her doctor going to be?” I told her, and she said, “That’s our doctor.” Just like the Lord allowed me to rest in the fact that there were some common factors in not walking into the unknown completely.

We got up to the tenth floor, got off the elevator, were met by the doctor, and taken to a small room. My husband and I left. We don’t remember the same things. I think the trauma of diagnosis. . . He remembers the doctor taking us to a large room and telling us our daughter had cancer. I remember being in a small waiting room and the doctor coming in and telling us, “I’m sorry. It looks like Millie has cancer.”

Nancy: Isn’t it amazing? I think, even later, after, you still couldn’t work out who was right.

Courtney: That’s right. And to this day, we just agree to disagree, because we can’t figure it out.

The doctor did say, in my mind, that she had probably Wilm’s tumors, which would be a 95% survival rate. I was sure he said it’s not neuroblastoma. Neuroblastoma stands out to me, because at that time, I had had a friend, who years earlier, had lost a child to neuroblastoma, so I knew it was a highly aggressive, very deadly cancer. I left the hospital that day. He allowed me to take her home and come back.

Nancy: Which one was it, exactly?                                                                                                  

Courtney: Well, you don’t know right off. They wait, and they have to do testing.

Nancy: I see.

Courtney: So, you walk out of the hospital. I’m carrying this baby that I know has cancer in her body, and I’m driving towards my home, not knowing what I’m going to find. We get back two days later. We get ready to admit into the hospital.

The doctor comes in and says, “Monday morning we’re going to test Millie for neuroblastoma.” I was floor-boarded. I said, “No, you absolutely are not!” He said, “Yes, that’s what we’re going to do.”

My husband said, “Why are you responding like that?” I said, “He said it was not neuroblastoma. He said it was Wilm’s.” He said, “Honey, he said right off that he thought it was neuroblastoma.” But my husband didn’t know the name of the cancer that our friend’s child had passed away from. It didn’t hit him like it hit me until I explained what that was.

After about two weeks, the confirmation came back that she did have neuroblastoma. She had every bad check you could have with it. The doctor said, “We’ll fight this, but it doesn’t look good.” He did. She fought. She took six rounds of frontline chemo. She did immunotherapy. She did all kinds of treatments over a year’s time. But come around April, her belly started to hurt again. She started complaining.

Nancy: What do you think about doing all that? Was it worthwhile doing that? Would she have still lived the same amount of time without it or not?

Courtney: I honestly don’t know.

Nancy: You don’t know.

Courtney: I mean, as the parent, you beat yourself up. Like, did we go through that for nothing?

Nancy: Yes. But then all you’re doing is trying to do something, aren’t you?

Courtney: You are. You are. I can say, as we look backwards, that every second we had in that hospital with her was a time of connection and relationship-building. My husband and I became very, very close. In March of that year was when covid hit, they sent me home. They would not allow me to be with her. But her and dad had got to be together and be so close.

Nancy: That was such a sad time, when so many parents could not be with their children, and so many children couldn’t be with aged parents. It was so disgusting. It was the opposite of medical care to separate families. But anyway, you had to alternate. When your husband was there, you were home. You were there, he had to be home. That’s how it works.

Courtney: Yes. It was a huge division in our family. We had gone from being a large homeschool family that ate dinner together every night. We lived on a farm. We had a lot of activities there.

To not see Daddy. He was at the hospital. I would go to the hospital during the day, and I would come home and do the children at night. But a lot of times, they were already in bed before I got home. I had to get up and leave by 6 AM to get back to the hospital so he could go to work the next day. A lot of the children felt deserted. Their sister was gone. She was sick. Their parents were gone. They were with sitters all day long. We were hanging on by a thread, definitely.

Nancy: Yes. And then, was your husband able to come back home for work?

Courtney: Absolutely. In March or April, due to covid, his work campus shut down, and they told him he could work from home, which was such a blessing.

Nancy: Then he could work from the hospital while he was with Millie.

Courtney: Yes.

Nancy: That was wonderful.

Courtney: It was.

Nancy: He, in that time, because usually it’s the mother spending more time, but he got to be spending as much time as you.

Courtney: Absolutely. I feel like that gave them a chance to develop a relationship that maybe he wouldn’t have had with any of our other children, because he wasn’t around as much with them, you know, working. But with her, he was there. They wouldn’t let me go. I was home with the children. He was there day in and day out with her.

Nancy: This was about a year of doing this?

Courtney: Yes, about a year.

Nancy: Oh, wow. That’s what you had to do. Total separating of your lives for a whole year. Yes, yes.

Courtney: At the end of that year, her tumor started growing rapidly. They told us she probably would not live. They did say we could try another round of chemo, but if we did the tumor would burst open and start to bleed. She would bleed to death pretty much instantly. Or we could take her home on hospice and have a little time with her.

Because of having such a large family, they were not going to allow any of our children or our grandparents into the hospital, due to covid. If my husband and I would have taken her to the hospital, she would have never seen her family again. That wasn’t an option.

Nancy: No. That’s the cruelest thing you could ever think about.

Courtney: It was. It was devastating. So, knowing that they were probably better prepared to take care of her in the hospital, but that we needed family, we loaded her in the car and took her home for the last three weeks of her life.

The first week she played in the yard with her siblings, rode her little tricycle. A lot of joy of being together. The second week, she lay on the couch. She had some tea parties, stuff she could get up for a few minutes and lay back down. The third week, she pretty much just slept on the couch until Wednesday morning when she passed away, right after lunch on Wednesday. That was really difficult. We were all there.

Nancy: Tell us how all that happened.

Courtney: On Monday, she did not want to come out of her bedroom. I allowed her to lay back there all day, with people checking on her. On Tuesday morning, I thought, “We’re going to power through this. We’re going to get dressed. I made her change clothes and come to the couch. She just laid there all day. She sat up once to visit with her grandmother, and one more time to visit with her daddy.

Then at bedtime, she said, “My mouth tastes yukky,” just out of the blue. I said, “Would you like to brush your teeth?” And she said, “Yes,” so I carried her to the bathroom and sat her on the counter. Her poor little frame was so heavy and big by this time, with the tumor. She was very wobbly on her feet. But I brushed her teeth, and she said, “I’m going to walk to bed.”

She had so much sass and spunk in her that she was bound and determined she would walk. So, I offered her my hand, and she walked about eight steps, and she said, “You’re going to carry me to bed.” I picked her up and carried her, and she said, “I gonna sleep with you, Mama.” She would never say, “I’m going to.” It was always, “I gonna.” “I gonna sleep with you.”

She got on the bed, and she put her head to my head, and she held my hand all night long. And amazingly, at three-and-a-half years old, she had never slept with us. She always wanted her own bed. If I ever tried to get in her hospital bed, she’d say, “You go home now, Mom. You get out of my bed.” She wanted her own bed, by herself. But that night, she wanted to sleep with me. I don’t know if she knew it was that close to the end. It was such a precious time.

Nancy: Oh, but how wonderful! You were sharing with me, Courtney, how she continued to nurse from you, right up to the end. I think that is so wonderful. That must have been her greatest comfort.

And, of course, the hospital didn’t want you doing that, did they? People would say, “What are you doing that for?” People don’t understand, do they, the power of the breast, and the comfort, the consolation that it is. It’s not just a food, oh no. What a blessed experience that you had that with her, right to the very end.

Courtney: Absolutely. I usually weaned my babies at about two years old, a little bit after two. At that time, she was so sick. There was no way I could wean her.

Nancy: No.

Courtney: When you’re taking chemotherapy, you don’t eat, so I continued to nurse her. The doctors would say, “You know she’s not getting anything. She doesn’t get any nutrients.” I said, “Well, it’s OK. We’re going to do this anyway.”

Nancy: Yes! It’s nothing about nutrients at that age. It’s about that bonding, and that comfort, and that closeness.

Courtney: Now, unfortunately, in April, when they only allowed one parent to go to the hospital, her daddy had to go with her, and I had to stay home. So, I knew that last day I would nurse her, and she would go in for her treatments.

When she came home a week later, she said, “Can we nursie?” I said, “No, it’s broke.” She said, “What? What do you mean, it’s broke?” I said, “Well, it’s broke, but we can always rock.” To the day she died, she would say, “We can’t nursie, but we can always rock.” We did. We rocked.

Even the morning before she passed away, we were in the rocking chair together. And then I laid her in her bed. Throughout the day, different family members came to see her. Gratefully, her passing was fairly peaceful. She called out to us, and we heard her. We all gathered around. My husband blessed her.

When she was a newborn, we had always said the Lord’s blessing over our children at bedtime. We would say, “The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. May He lift His countenance upon you and give you peace.”

And then as a family joke, sometimes I’d say, “A piece of chicken, a piece of candy, maybe He gives you a piece of pizza!” They’d say, “No, Mom! It’s God’s peace!” But we laugh and have a good time with it. Even to this day, my other children will say, “Are you going to come bless me for bed?” That’s like their bedtime prayer.

Nancy: Amen. That’s beautiful.

Courtney: I leaned close to her little ear, and I said, “Just run to Jesus, baby. Run to Jesus.” As she did pass away, I said, “Please hand her to me.” My husband picked her up and put her in my arms. I remember bowing over her, knowing she was gone. I could feel all the weight go into her body. Her little body got really heavy.

I thought that was the end of that story. And yet, for weeks we didn’t have her passing. I had prayed, “Lord, she came from my body. I held her first. I really want to hold her as she passes away, yet I would never, ever steal that time from my husband.” That was so important because they were so close. I had not shared that with my husband.

We went on a date night about six weeks after she passed away, and he mentioned, “You know, she took her last breath in your arms.” I just broke. I sobbed, and I said, “I don’t know what you mean.” He said, “When I handed her to you, she took one last breath,” and I couldn’t pull it together. He said, “What’s wrong?” I said, “That was my greatest heart’s desire, my biggest prayer. Yet I could never share that, because it would be so selfish, and that the Lord knew the desires of my heart, and He met that.” I felt so loved of the Lord.

Nancy: Oh, yes, yes. I think that’s so beautiful. God is so faithful, isn’t He?

Courtney: Yes, yes.

Nancy: Thank you for sharing this story. Oh, it’s so heartbreaking, and yet, I know you wouldn’t have missed one moment of those years with little Millie.

Courtney: No, absolutely not. When you look at that reversal, I think if we had known, I think if God had said, we’re going to have this reversal, but one of your children is going to die, we would have been like, “Oh! No, no! Never mind, God. We don’t want to do this!” And yet, we didn’t know what was to come. I’m so grateful, because we wouldn’t want to miss one single second. We wouldn’t want to live in fear, which would have caused us to miss that time.

Nancy: Yes. And God was with you all that time. The preciousness and the life, every day you have the memories of this life. You were telling me how she wasn’t some morbid little sickly child. She was a little sassy child. Tell us about what she was really like.

Courtney: She was a sassy child. She wore green cowboy boots that were not hers. They were her brother’s, and she stole them from him. Every time he looked for his boots, they were always on her feet. At the hospital, she was well-known as “the little girl in green boots.” She would go in the hospital door, and as the double doors opened, she would announce, “Hello, I’m home to my hospital!”

She thought all the nurses were her friends. She played hide-and-go-seek under the nurses’ desk, dragging an IV pole. It didn’t matter. She figured out all the lingo for the hospital, like she could tell you, “When I have chemo, I can’t go out in the hall.” She knew what scans were, so we tried to switch the verbiage to “pictures.” She’d say, “I’m not going to take a picture. I’m not taking a scan.”

But the thing we laughed about the most; she wore pull-ups. There was no time to potty train her before she got sick. In the pull-ups bag, there would be a Minnie Mouse, and then a Jessie from Toy Story. Then a Minnie Mouse, and then a Jessie. She refused to wear Jessie. Refused. If you pulled Jessie out, she would have the biggest fit, kicking and screaming.

We would hide all the Jessies and slide them on her in the middle of the night when she was sleeping. She’d wake up and say, “What?? Where did THAT come from?” But she loved Minnie Mouse.

She definitely was sassy, spunky. She told jokes. She loved speed. She loved to be on the four-wheeler riding with her siblings. She loved her farm. She’d come home from the hospital, could barely walk because of the chemo, and she’d say, “Put me on my plane.” And she’d be on the plane under the tree, just swinging back and forth.

Nancy: Then you say how she would only wear certain clothes, or colors, because her life was out of control. I guess somehow, she wanted to have some control over some things.

Courtney: Absolutely. I think we teach our children you don’t let people touch you. Stay away from strangers. Yet, when you’re two-and-a-half, and you’re diagnosed with cancer, every person you meet wants to not only look at you, but they also want you to take your clothes off. They want to poke you with needles.

Not that any of them wanted to do those things to her, but that’s what it looked like. Everybody she met would hurt her. Just think of how crazy her little life went, from being at home with her siblings, to all of a sudden, everywhere you go, it’s pain and trauma. It was a big difference. We tolerated some of the fit-throwing to allow her to have a little bit of control in her life.

Nancy: Yes, yes. I think when you face something like this, you face, also, the eternal world, don’t you? And you realize again that that is the real world, the eternal world. I remind myself all the time, the eternal world is the real world. We are just here for such a short time. It’s only a vapor, the Bible says.

Even to go through something like this, you’re going through it for eternity. You’re going to meet with her, live life with her, rejoice with her, for the whole of eternity. It’s not one minute is ever wasted! That’s the amazing thing, isn’t it?

And I know, perhaps many of you who are listening, you’ve had little ones, or maybe older ones who’ve passed away. It’s so hard to even get over that heartache. But, oh, I want to encourage you today, and I know Courtney would love to encourage you that not one moment of their life was ever wasted. Because you were blessed with every memory. You have the joy of all that is to come. It’s so incredible.

Oh, we are not without hope, are we? What would you say to fellow mothers who have been through what you’ve been through? Or perhaps are facing things even now. What would you say to them?

Courtney: I think we have to remember that my very worst day here on earth was her very best day. She closed her eyes in my presence, but she opened them in the face of Jesus. When she got to Heaven, she didn’t miraculously become an angel. Children do not become angels, but she was there, in the face of her Lord. She’s not looking back, missing me, because when you’re in the presence of Jesus, you’re there to worship Him.

I think that’s important, because we often think, “Oh, but they’re so alone,” or “in the unknown.” No, you can’t feel any of that. There are no tears or sorrow in heaven. Now, those of us left behind, we feel those tears and sorrow.

Nancy: You’re the ones who are sorrowing.

Courtney: That’s right.

Nancy: How long is it now, since Millie went to be with Jesus?

Courtney: About two-and-a-half years.

Nancy: Two-and-a-half years. How have you found your comfort in this time?

Courtney: I think the first year you just go numb. You don’t really know what’s going on. You cry a lot. The second year, you carry it a little gentler. You still get the wind knocked out of you, but it’s not as often.

Sometimes we think that grieving parents get over it. I don’t think we ever get over it, but what we do is learn how to carry it. Learn who can hear it, who’s strong enough to hear our story, and to love them. You want to be able to. . . I think you gravitate towards parents who know your same sorrow. In my own life, I’ve gotten into some great support groups. I’ve been very blessed to meet some other ladies who know what we’ve gone through.

Then knowing that, I wanted to be able to tell Millie what was going to happen. Because she wanted all this rocking her on hospice, I would whisper in her ear, and say, “Soon you’re going to be in Heaven with Jesus.” She was three. She knew about Jesus from us, but what does that look like to a three-year-old? I would say, “There’s no pain in Heaven. You’re going to be there, and you’re going to be happy.”

She said one time, “Mama, can you and Daddy go with me?” I said, “We will, soon enough, but soon you get to go where there are no more tears, in Heaven.” What I would have liked to have had was a gentle way to teach her about it, in storybook form. So, I wrote that. I wrote a book called Millie Finds Her Miracle. It’s about a little girl who searches everywhere in life for her miracle. There’s a hospital. People around the world praying. There’s her playground, and eventually Millie finds her miracle in Heaven.

The book doesn’t teach theology, and it doesn’t have scary stuff. But what it does is open the door for a parent to talk to their child about death. Even if you’re not facing your own child’s death, maybe you have a sibling or a friend that knows someone who has passed away, or a grandparent. I had a mom recently who was passing away from breast cancer. She bought the book and read the book to her little children, saying, “Just like Millie went to Heaven, Mommy is going to go Heaven soon.” It’s a gentle way to teach those children.

Nancy: Yes. Thank you for writing this, Courtney. You read it to us at the café. It was so beautiful. And the pictures! They’re so beautiful! I would recommend it to anyone going through a similar experience, or you most probably know friends who are going through a similar experience. You can get it. Tell us where you can get the book, Courtney.

Courtney: I would like to say it’s not cancer-specific, but if your child is sick from something else, or you know someone else, it’s not locked into cancer. You can get it at my website, which is www.MilliesMiracle.net.

Nancy: That’s pretty easy. www.MilliesMiracle.net. I would encourage you to go and get that. I know you’ve been touched today, as I have been, listening to that amazing story. I pray that if you are going through a similar experience, that you will know that God is carrying you through.

I love that Scripture, Psalm 55:22: “Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and He shall sustain thee.” He holds us up.

We often don’t know how we could ever go through something until we’re going through it, and find that, in the going through it, God is there, holding us up. He does. He is faithful. He holds us up. I love to read that Scripture. I know you most probably know it, but oh, it's so wonderful, isn’t it?

Isaiah 43:1-3, another wonderful promise. “I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine. When thou passeth through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Savior.”

Sometimes we are prone, when we’re going through something, to concentrate on all we’re going through. “Oh, I’m going through this fiery trial,” and that is our confession. But that shouldn’t be our confession. Our confession should be, what does it say? “When you go through the fire, I am with you. You will not be burned.” We can change our confession.

“Dear Father, thank You. You are with me. Yes, this is a fiery trial, but I thank You that You are with me. I will not be burned. Thank You, Lord. I can come out of this, like the three men who were in the fire. They came out, without even the smell of fire upon them.”

While you’re going through the rivers, you feel as though you’re drowning. It’s over your head! You wonder how you can ever even keep your head above water! But what does the Scripture say? “When you go through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.” You can say, “Oh well, it’s all very well for you to say that. I’m the one going through it at this moment.”

But dear precious one, God’s Words are true! They are faithful. They never fail. When you turn your eyes onto Him, and you speak the confession, “Thank You Lord. Lord, this seems overwhelming, but You have said I will not drown. I thank You, Lord, that they’re not going to overflow me. I will not drown, because you are with me.” Constantly confess that God is your Emmanuel, God with us. He will not fail you, no matter what you’re facing. Amen?

And Courtney, our time is coming up. Have you got anything else that you’d love to pass on to the moms?

Courtney: I think this is so awesome. People will say to me, “You’re so strong.” I think if they realized I’m not so strong, it’s my dependence on Jesus.

Nancy: Amen!

Courtney: Because I am weak, and He is strong. I do try to remind others of that. Oftentimes it will look like you’ve got it all together, and you feel like you’re drowning, just like what you said. You have to rely on Jesus. I told Him early on. I prayed, “Lord, please keep her here on earth, and let her tell of Your goodness with her own mouth. But if you don’t, I will tell the story for her.”

Through that, I wrote on Facebook, and have a large Facebook group, Millie’s Miracle. I write about grieving parents, just the raw emotions of it, because I want other grieving parents to know they’re not alone. They’re so alone, like nobody else feels this way. Oftentimes parents will write and say, “Thank you for saying the words that I couldn’t form.”

Nancy: Amen.

“Father, we thank You for hearing this story today. We thank You for the life of little Millie. Lord, even though we’re just hearing about it, we feel as though we’ve been part of her life and taken a glimpse into a beautiful life that You created, that You created for eternity. Lord, we thank You that eternity is the real world, and to help us, every one of us, no matter what our circumstances, Lord, that we will always see that, Lord, this life is just a vapor.

“Lord, many have lost little ones through miscarriage and all different circumstances. But every life that is conceived is life. It’s eternal life, and Lord, we’re going to meet these precious lives one day. We thank You. We thank You for the hope that You give us in Christ. We praise Your wonderful Name. Amen.”

Blessings from Nancy Campbell

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

www.aboverubies.org

Transcribed by Darlene Norris * This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Grief Resources:

Podcasts:
• Nothing is Wasted
• While We’re Waiting

Online Support Groups:
• Infant loss – PrayingThruMinistries.org
• Any aged Child loss – WhileWereWaiting.org
• Child loss – Hopeunshakeable.net

MILLIE FINDS HER MIRACLE

In 2019, when my two-year-old daughter was diagnosed with a life-threatening disease, I had no resources to explain her illness to her. When we were told she would not survive a year later, there were no books on how to explain death to a child in gentle, faith-filled terms. "Millie Finds Her Miracle" is a book that leads readers on Millie's journey as she searches everywhere for her miracle of healing. From her playground to the hospital, with people around the world praying, Millie ultimately finds her miracle in Heaven. This book is instrumental to children facing their own death, siblings seeing death, parents walking with their child through death, and the numerous caregivers who assist in the end-of-life process. Very young children will love finding the butterfly hidden on each page and looking at the bright, simple illustrations.

Courtney’s Bio:

Courtney Mount, a faith-based author and mother, experienced the devastation of losing a child when her youngest daughter received a terminal cancer diagnosis. Courtney has been featured on podcasts, blogs, and as a venue speaker sharing both her daughter's story and her faith in Christ to carry her through loss.

She and her husband are parents to eight other children and grandparents to seven. She enjoys rural farm life and home-educating her children. The detailed journal that Courtney kept during her daughter's illness is continually being updated during her grief journey and can be found on Facebook at MilliesMiracle2020. Readers can learn more on her website at MilliesMiracle.net

 

LIFE TO THE FULL w/ Nancy Campbell

EPISODE 251: Raising Godly Children in an Ungodly Culture, Part 2

Allison and Daniel Hartman are with me again today. We talk about the father's influence in the home. A godly father has a powerful influence in guiding his children. It is certainly time for the hearts of the fathers to be turned to the children.

Announcer: Welcome to the podcast, Life to The Full, with Nancy Campbell, founder and publisher of Above Rubies.

Nancy Campbell: Hello, ladies! You won’t believe it, but I have Daniel and Allison Hartman with us again! Wow! That’s so cool. And I also have my current Above Rubies helper, Suzanne, who comes from Washington state.

Last time we were talking with Daniel and Allison, and we were talking about the importance of beginning to see everything in our worldview from a family perspective. Not just individually, but as a family, because this is God’s heart. This is how He began this world. This was His plan.

I love Genesis 2:24, where it says: “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” In that Scripture, we get the whole concept of family. It not only talks about the husband and the wife; it talks about the mother and the father, even though there was no mother or father living at that time.

Nobody knew what a father or mother was, but God spoke it forth, because it was in His heart. It was His plan. He speaks it out before we’ve even ever seen a father or mother. Of course, from this one-flesh relationship is going to come children. Then the husband and wife become a father and a mother. With the children, they’re a family.

When God was speaking to His people, there’s one Scripture in Jeremiah, where He’s talking. He said, “You know, I’m speaking to all the families of Israel.” He didn’t speak to them individually, but as families (Jeremiah 31;1).

I want to read this Scripture Daniel talked about last time again. We want to talk a little bit with you more today because there’s so much more to say. “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” We know that Elijah came in the anointing of John the Baptist before Jesus came. It tells us about that in Luke 1:16, 17, how that he came, and it repeats this Scripture in Malachi 4:5, 6, that He came to “turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers.”

I’m reading through the New Testament again. I noticed, as I’ve been reading the gospels, on three different occasions, Jesus actually said that John the Baptist came in the anointing of Elijah. John the Baptist came first to prepare the way for the first coming of Jesus. But that wasn’t the great and dreadful day of the Lord that is yet to come.

This Scripture in Malachi has yet to be fulfilled to what God is saying that before Jesus comes again, the anointing of Elijah will come to “turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, lest He comes and smite the earth with a curse.” We can’t take this lightly. We’ve got to get with this Scripture, because it’s pretty serious. What do you think?

Allison: Absolutely.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah, the whole earth. The Kendrick brothers had a movie that we watched. It went through all the statistics of how the fatherless home is affecting our society. All the crime rates are directly linked, everyone in prison, divorce, pretty much every metric of our society is related to this. It says the whole earth will fall under a curse when this is not done correctly.

Like we talked about last time, we’re starting a church in our home, directly encouraging fathers to take up this mantle. Obviously, not just that, but all of Scripture. The whole point is to come into alignment with the Kingdom and not really worry about what everybody else is doing. Let’s just get back to the Bible, and to the New Testament, and not worry about reforming this or that, or what everyone else is doing. Let’s see what the Bible says, and let’s do it.

Nancy: Amen!

Allison: I was going to say, when we picked up last time, when we stopped the podcast, we started talking. We were like, “Oh, man, there’s so much more to say!” But one thing I noticed is, I was telling you that from this church that we started, we’re seeing fruit. We’re already seeing fruit in our own children.

I feel like the neat thing about having a church in your home and being in charge of it, is your children now have responsibilities. In order to raise leaders, we have to put them in leadership positions. To raise servants, you have to put them in servant positions. How can they be taught to serve the widows and orphans if they’re pew-sitters, and they don’t have that responsibility?

We’re in this homechurch situation, and our older, 14, 15-year-olds, they’re the ones setting out the chairs, fixing the meals, helping to make sure the other children, the single moms that are coming with littles that might be noisy. Well, they need to get them some toys, right? We’re setting our children up for success. We’re setting them up to be servants.

It’s been a beautiful thing. I’ve seen, in my own children, I’m watching them. They are growing. I’m seeing fruit. I’m seeing them live this faith as their own and not just be consumers. They are producers. They are leaders. It’s been a reward that I didn’t expect.

Daniel: In 1 Corinthians 14:26, where it lists these requirements, really, I see for the church, they are completely involved. When they’re involved, they have importance.

Allison: Oh, yes.

Nancy: Yes. But anyway, as we were talking last time, when you were with us, Suzanne got talking too, my lovely helper here. She was saying how she experienced this in her whole family. We want you to share that, Suzanne. Tell us your testimony.

Suzanne: First, Nancy, thank you for giving me the opportunity to share, because I am so encouraged by this conversation, as it has been the testimony of my family. Growing up in a family of ten children, we were all homeschooled, and we were really the typical lifestyle Christianity. We went to church on Sunday, and then every night of the week, every one of my siblings and myself had an activity.

Dad was less of the father, and more of the taxi driver. To sports, and to dance, and to voice lessons. I could go on and on. We had youth groups and Bible quizzing. It was less of a unified family and more of a fractured front. It was all in age chunks, and we rarely saw each other. The biggest thing was that we attended church, and churches, where we were split into all the different age groups.

My parents, who are amazing and my biggest role models in life, had a passion and a vision for a family-integrated church. Yet, the lifestyle that we were in didn’t afford for that. The churches that we came into contact with were all broken into a program mentality of public school, a mentality where you would have the youth group in the middle school.

We would go to church on Sunday, and we would be seen as those who lived in the Dark Ages. We still wanted our children to sit in the pews. We still wanted the children to worship and to be trained in the fear and admonition of the Lord by learning how to listen, and to listen actively, and listen well. We really went through a season of searching for a church like this.

But the biggest thing that changed in our family was my father. My three older siblings, who were trained and were living in this home, they ended up turning away from the Lord because my father was so distracted by carpooling, and by doing all the things, and by working a job, and all of these things, that he wasn’t bringing the family back to the Bible. I think it was an amazing thing to see that his leadership was the pillar to our home. When it was gone, the covering was gone from my older sisters, and my family.

In this season of looking for church, my dad went to a conference with a homeschool teacher named Scott Brown. He said something that my dad really holds as a motto in our home, and that is, the church and the family is at the center. Not all of the activities, not all of the programs, a family-integrated church.

My Dad’s heart came back to the Lord in a renewed way. He began to lead us as a family, eventually driving two hours to find a family-integrated church. We spent an entire year every Sunday morning and Wednesday night plugging into this church community two hours away, so we could be a unified family. And I tell you what, those car drives are some of my favorite memories, because going to church, we would have the most incredible conversations. And then coming back, we would be going over what we heard in the sermon, and all the different things that my siblings were able to glean.

We came from a completely fractured family of going to things every single night, and losing the attention of my older siblings, who sadly, are still away from the family and away from the Lord. Now, we are the most unified family, because my dad has taken on the mantle of being the father of our home, and he does it so well. I praise the Lord for my incredible parents.

I can’t leave it there without saying that my mom is the undergirder. She’s the helpmeet to my dad, and she was there, packing all the bags, and prepping all the food to drive those two hours.

We eventually moved closer to our church community. But God be praised for the work He did in my father’s life, to completely transform our family to where now this church is at the center.

On Sunday morning, you’ll find all of us children sitting together in a big, long row, praising the Lord, and fellowshipping over a meal afterwards, and going out, and having not just peer relationships, but relationships of older and wiser couples, and older and wiser men in the church who are mentoring my brothers and my sisters, older women to sisters. The Lord is faithful when we do what the Bible says, and we follow the biblical pattern of what it looks like to have a family-integrated church experience.

Nancy: Amen!

Allison: That is so powerful. When we heard your testimony a little bit ago, I thought, “You have to share that because you’re at a very pivotal age!” Like we talked in the first podcast, so many young people, when they hit that pivotal spot in their lives, they can go one way or the other.

I’ve heard it said that the most important person in a girl’s life is their father. You would almost think that should be the mother, because we’re the same gender. No, the most powerful person in a girl’s life is their father, the most influential person, good or bad. I think it was interesting because you had two different stories. You had your sisters’, and then you had you. You guys both went two different ways. It was all centered around your father, not a youth pastor, but your father.

We have a friend who would not mind me sharing her story. We met her at an Above Rubies retreat. She had such a similar situation, where they had done all the programs and had their children in all these activities, and then, all of a sudden, their son met a girl in youth group who had very different values. Just by her beauty and the romance of the relationship, she sucked her son, who they thought they had done a great job raising, sucked him away from the family to the point where when they got married, they didn’t even invite the mom and dad, or the children, to the wedding! Now they have nothing to do with them.

Daniel: They go as far to say they’ll call the cops, to not even let them come.

Allison: They said, “We’ll call the police if you show up and disturb our wedding,” because they were so against having that family involvement. You go back to, where did it all start? It started by their letting the church raise their children. They were letting programs divide their family. It got so bad that the younger son was so depressed that he lost his brother. Tragically, he ended up burning his house down because he was doing something foolish.

It didn’t start from that. It started from their church; their youth pastor was raising their children. They were allowing culture to decide how their family was going to be raised. I’m so passionate about it and I’m amazed at your story. You’re telling exactly what happens. I was thinking about you, about starting this relationship with this boy, and how you’re about to get married.

You are the exact person that needs to hear this message. You understand? Because what were we just talking about? It all stems from the older children. If your older children get this, they will set a precedent for the younger. I’m so thankful our older daughter is so awesome. She was such a family girl. She was so modest, because her siblings all followed her. Had she been rebellious and whatever, they would have all followed her.

You’ve got to get that message when you’re first married. I encourage all you young people, all the newly marrieds, to go to some of these Above Rubies family camps and hear this message. Let them listen to these podcasts, because it’s so critical.

Suzanne: I would add, as an encouragement to the young women who may be listening, or even the young men, that in that transition where your parents may be opening up their eyes to this new way of living, this biblical way of living, that it does take a season of grace.

There were a lot of times where my dad would step out in leadership, and then maybe stumble, and maybe have to pick back up, by the power of the Holy Spirit. As the older child in the home, there was a lot of forgiveness and a lot of reconciliation. God is the God of reconciliation, so He is able do that.

But there is definitely a grace needed as an older child, to call your siblings higher, and say, “Let’s give our parents grace. Let’s give our parents encouragement as they desire to walk in this new family-integrated lifestyle of bringing the children into it and bringing the family back to the foundation and the sufficiency of Scripture.”

Nancy: Tell us that little story you told me about how you had your Bible basket. And what happened with your siblings? [laughter]

Suzanne: Yes, well, as I said, I do have nine wonderful siblings. They are so, so sweet. But there was a time where I went and I got a basket, just like Nancy, dear Nancy. I had my Bible and my journal and my pens and everything in it. I would put it by my bedside. A couple of days later, two of my little twin brothers both had little baskets. They would come down to where I was sitting. They had their Bibles, and their journals, and they were doing it just like me.

I was greatly encouraged and convicted that every little thing I do as an older sister sets an example. Every word I say, every action, they’re noticing that. It was an encouragement to say, “They’re looking up to me. Whatever I do, whether good or bad, will set a trajectory for how they will honor the family and live in unity.”

Nancy: I have a dear friend. When I was a young person, she was a mother of eight children, but she was one of my best friends. She always said to me, “Nancy, if you train your older children right, then you can trust that all the younger ones will follow on.” It is so true.

Daniel: I’ll just add the father’s perspective. When my children, I saw their hearts straying off, I saw their hearts were becoming divided, I would sit down for hours and talk to them. I’ll say that in the home, as we’re saying with this basket, there’s really “that which is done in secret will be shouted from the rooftops.” It’s exacerbated, good or bad. It’ll be magnified, good or bad.

Really, it’s a growing of parents to humble yourselves and understand that everything that we do, our children are watching. We’re not going to deceive them at all. They’re watching everything that we do. It’s so much more encouragement to me, when I’m understanding that, and when I’m humbling myself as the father, and laying my life down for my family, to guide them. But first, it's got to start with my heart. It’s got to start with me.

Revival has to start. Really, this is the methodology for revival. How is this seen? Well, Elijah came and made the way, and turned the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers. Then came Jesus, and He changed the world. This recipe is so amazing, if, when it’s followed appropriately like it was from the Old Testament to the New Testament. It is how the hearts are changed. And then, once those that are changed in the church, as the Bride of Christ is changed, then discipleship can go out to the world and change the world.

Nancy: Yes. Absolutely.

WE MUST BE OUR CHILDREN’S GREATEST INFLUENCERS

Allison: Right now, our children are being influenced by something. When they’re in public school, or they’re in Christian school, or even a homeschool co-op, your children are being influenced by something, someone. We need to make sure that we are their greatest influencers.

Sports, sports are a very debated topic in homeschool worlds. We’re a very athletic family. Goodness, I want to be careful with the way I say it. We did allow our children to play sports at a Christian school. Thankfully, it worked out fine. The reason it worked out fine was we were very, very careful with boundaries. We never let them ride the bus with the team. We never let them stay in the hotel rooms with the teams.

Let me say, that was a lot of wisdom, because I unfortunately found out, that even though it was a Christian school, there were some really, really naughty, bad things happening on that bus, and in those hotel rooms. You can’t just assume, “Oh well, it’s a Christian school, or it’s a homeschool co-op.” No, if they’re spending six, eight hours with all these children, it’s the blind leading the blind!

We have to be our children’s greatest influencers. If all week long they’re in school, or they’re in programs, and then come to church and then you divide them again, don’t be surprised if they’re following the culture, because that’s all they know. They’re following the blind leading the blind. These fathers, you guys, you mothers, we have to step up. We have to step up and say, “Enough is enough. We’re going to be our children’s greatest influences.”

Suzanne: And just jumping on what you said, one of my favorite quotes says, “You become what you behold.” If young people are like you were just saying, Mrs. Hartman, beholding peer groups, and the culture, and social media, and those types of things, they will become like that.

Allison: Absolutely.

Suzanne: Whereas, on the juxtaposition on that, the opposite of that, is if they’re beholding parents who are rooted in the Word of God, and who are leading their families back to Scripture, and who are passionate about the things of the Lord, that’s what they will behold. They will become mighty in the Kingdom of God because of that.

Allison: Even what we do with our time. We’re an entrepreneurial family. Our children are never allowed to say, “I’m bored,” because I’ll find them a job to do. But we are constantly talking about creating new businesses, and we’re always getting our children involved in buying this and reselling. If you’re talking about being around people who are business-minded, that’s what your children are going to be thinking about instead of playing video games or wasting time watching TV. We don’t do that kind of stuff because that’s not what they see. They see me and my husband. All we do is work, work, work, so that’s what they do.

Daniel: And I’ll add Scriptural context to that. Every family in the Bible, as far as I can see, had some sort of a family business. Whether they were herding sheep, or planting a field, or whatever. When I was young, reading the Bible, that was what I got out of it. “Oh, well, I’m going to be a small business owner and I’m going to include my family in every aspect of it.” I chose a business that I can do that with.

To me, that was so important, in that this could be a whole another rabbit trail. But I’ll just end this with that, that it’s intentionally everything. Getting feedback, including giving importance to my children, giving them jobs and training them, discipling them. That is truly the Great Commission.

Obviously, all power is given to me in heaven and earth. We’re to go and preach the gospel and baptize and repent. But it says: “To make disciples and teach all the commandments that I’ve given you.” When we do that, it’s an all-day thing. It’s making sure we’re intentional on everything that our children are doing, and what I’m doing, because they’re watching me.

Nancy: Absolutely. And I believe that the greatest revival that we can have, that we need, is this Malachi, chapter four, and repeated in Luke, chapter one, the returning of the hearts of the fathers to the children, and vice versa. It’s coming back to family.

I am so thrilled, and I’m praising God to hear of these beautiful revivals that are happening in Asbury College and many other colleges now. They are beautiful. They are the work of God. God is working in the hearts of these beautiful young people and drawing them to Him. They’re seeing their sins, and their folly, and the vainness of this worldly life. They’re turning to the Lord, and it’s so glorious. It’s all part of revival. But the ultimate is, we can even have that, which is an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

But if we don’t have it touching the family, and changing the family, we haven’t got it! The greatest revival that ever happened was in the time of King Josiah. You just want to go back and read it. It was so powerful. He got rid of every sodomite in the land. Any evil person was wiped out. It was such a total cleansing! You could not even imagine it! Try to imagine it happening in our land. You can hardly imagine it. But that did take place.

And yet, his three children, who were living at that time, teens, who all became future kings, not one of them followed the Lord. Even that revival did not touch the next generation. It must touch the family. It must touch the next generation.

So, as we close, let me read the portion from Luke, which is a repeating of Malachi. Luke 1:17: “And he shall go before Him,” this is talking about John the Baptist, “in the Spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

This is the hour for us to be getting ready, preparing for the Lord, for His coming, which is not going to be like the first coming which was joy to all men! Goodwill and joy to all men! This coming will be joy to the believers, but it’s going to be a dreadful day, a dreadful day of God bringing all evil and evil people in subjection to Him. There will be great wrath poured out.

We’ve got to be ready. We’ve got to get our children ready. Even as it tells us in Revelation, it’s a Bride, preparing herself for her Bridegroom. This is the hour. This is the greatest revival. Let’s be part of it. Amen? Can you pray, Daniel, pray as we end?

Daniel: Fathers, my encouragement is to you. It starts with us, and by God’s grace, let’s do it. Let’s take action.

“Dear Lord, thank You so much for Your Word, and You coming and making Yourself real to us, God. Let’s pray, God, that we all come into Your Kingdom, come into Your Presence, God. Let us all enter Your Presence with joy, and Your gates with thanksgiving, God.

Let us humble ourselves before You, God, as fathers, as families, and work out our salvation with fear and trembling, God. We give You the praise and give You the glory. God. The results are Yours. In Jesus’ Name we pray. Amen.”

Nancy: Amen!

that which You have given us and never let it go. We ask it in Jesus’ Name. Amen.”

Blessings from Nancy Campbell

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

www.aboverubies.org

Transcribed by Darlene Norris * This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Links for you to enjoy:

Jeremiah 31:1: “At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be THE GOD OF ALL THE FAMILIES OF ISRAEL, and they shall be my people.”

 

LIFE TO THE FULL w/ Nancy Campbell

EPISODE 250: Interview with Michael Tait (Lead Singer of Newsboys)

For 250 podcasts you have listened to Michael Tait as his song “In That Home” introduces and ends this podcast. At last, you are hearing from him in person. You will love hearing the story of this song about his mother and the way she drew so many hurting souls into her heart and her home. You'll also hear some inside stories about our sons, Wes and Steve Campbell. And this time, we will play you the full song.

Announcer: Welcome to the podcast, Life to The Full, with Nancy Campbell, founder and publisher of Above Rubies.

Nancy Campbell: Hello, ladies! And everyone else that is listening today. As I mentioned last week, today I have with me Michael Tait. So great to have you with us, Michael!

Michael: Mama Nancy, I am thrilled as a bug to be here!

Nancy: Oh, that’s so great! As many of you may know, my eldest son, Wes Campbell, owns the Newsboys. My next son, Steve Campbell, manages them on the road. Michael Tait, I am sure you know, is the lead singer of the Newsboys. He used to sing with TobyMac, and then nearly 14 years ago, he came to the Newsboys!

Michael: I’m upgraded, I’m told. [laughter] I upgraded, yeah.

Nancy: Michael is just like part of the family. It is so great to have you here. And it’s time that I got you here, Michael, because, ladies, young people, every single time you listen to this podcast, you listen to Michael. Because we introduce this podcast with your song, “In That Home,” and then we end the podcast with another part of that beautiful song. So, you’ve been listening to Michael for a long time. This is No. 250 podcast.

Michael: Wow!

Nancy: It’s so great to have Michael today. And thank you, Michael. I just love that song. Every time I hear it when it comes on, oh, it has such a beautiful anointing. I’ve talked with you many times about your mom who’s now gone to glory. But every time you talk to me about her, my heart just throbs, because oh, I love the stories you tell about her. I remember how you told me once, because she was a woman who not only raised children, goodness, how many did she raise? She opened her home to hurting hearts, didn’t she?

Michael: The ruler of the home. Mom and Dad raised nine kids. Five girls, four boys. I was told in secret that they saved the best for last.

Nancy: Yes, because you’re amazing!

Michael: I’m going to believe that part.

Nancy: So, you are the youngest.

Michael: Yes, the youngest, the baby. My mom and I had a very, very close relationship, as do most boys with their moms, as I tend to find out, tend to see. My mom lived in the inner city of DC. Our home, Mama Nancy, our home was four blocks northeast of the US Capitol Building. We were right on Capitol Hill, literally.

My dad was a cab driver and a preacher. He planted churches in DC. My mom was a godly Christian woman who raised nine kids. My home would be open to . . .  there were kids in the street, good kids, and sometimes there were troubled kids. Mom would invite them in for a meal or for a devotion around the table.

We had on Monday nights . . . Dad would come home. The hot summer nights, my friends would come to the house, kids would come to the house and Dad would preach to them. Some of them we had saved, some would “shuck and jive,” as my Dad would say. It was a real house of love and ministry as we were growing up. Mom was the keynote. Dad was at the helm, but Mom was second in command. No doubt about it!

Nancy: And I love how you told me once how she would take someone’s heart, and she would put it in her heart.

Michael: She had the strangest way with people. People would talk to my mom. She would literally. . . They were like, “We want your mom to be our mom.” Because she had this thing. She could just draw you in and take a piece of your heart. You’re done! You’re stuck! From then on, you have a good healthy addiction to Maxine Tait, because she spoke such truth, such love. A lot of young girls . . . she spoke purpose. My mom would talk to them.

A lot of girls would be single moms, girls from troubled homes. My mom would love on them and speak life into them. They never forgot that. She just had this thing.

Your son Steve, my road manager, and one of my best friends, Steven Campbell. He met my mom on several occasions. He talked about it. He waxed on about my mom like you just did in opening there. “Your Mom, Maxine was so wonderful! She’s so, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, you know? Because she really was that lady.

Nancy: I know. I wished I could have met her.

Michael: And then the Lord stole her from us. But He can have her back. We’re going to meet her there one day.

Nancy: Amen! Amen. You only just get a few of the words when we introduce the podcast. But just let me read some of them to you. I love it.

There was a home in town

Where broken kids, the lost and found

Would come from miles around

Just to see, what love was all about

‘Cause Mamma had a way of makin' things okay

I want to cry already!

Michael: I know, I know.

 

Nancy:

 She'd cook us our favorite meal

Sit and listen to how we feel

Oh, how the pain was real

How many families will the devil steal?

Momma had a way of makin’ things okay

 

In that home

We knew we were safe

To be young enough to dream

Find the faith to believe

And in that home

Love, it had no end

It's where we learned to forgive

In that home

 

Momma always had the music on

Sometimes loud [maybe as loud as the Newsboys! She liked it loud!] sometimes soft

When I asked her 'bout her favorite song

She opened the Bible to the book of Psalms

She always found a way to talk about grace

 

And on that day I got the news

That Momma's stay here was almost through

I stayed all night by her side

Held her hand, looked in her eyes

And said, Momma

 

When you're home

I know you'll be safe

Strong enough to see

The faith that you believed

And in that home

Life will have no end

I know I'll see you again

In that home

Oh, what a song! It’s my favorite! Well, maybe. I know that “God’s Not Dead” is the most popular Newsboys song.

Michael: Ever.

Nancy: Ever. There’s been many popular ones, but that was THE popular one. Of course, they’ve done three movies, God’s Not Dead. I hope you’ve seen them all, because they’re all so amazing. But I have to say, that song is my favorite because it just touches my heart about a mother and the power of a mother.

She not only raised you, and I guess she couldn’t even imagine just how many, literally thousands and thousands, that you’ve sung the words of truth from the gospel to. She raised her own children. She touched so many others. And she didn’t have to go out to do it. She did it in her home! It was IN THAT HOME.

IT’S IN YOUR HOME

I want to encourage you today, moms. It’s in that home. It’s in your home. It’s in your home that you can accomplish everything that God wants you to accomplish. Because in your home, you are in the very perfect will of God. You are where He placed you. He placed mothers in homes. He didn’t place them out in the career world. He placed them in homes, to raise children in homes.

Because this is where God wants us to raise our children, in our homes. Not in daycares by someone who doesn’t love them like we love them and places where they have all these little children. They haven’t got enough time to really love on each little baby and toddler and understand their most inner fears and heartaches. Oh, the power of motherhood is incomprehensible. It can never be made up.

You see children, children who haven’t had a mother, their mothers have abandoned them, or they’ve been through . . .  women on drugs. Their children get dragged up. Those early years of missing out on that, that bond of motherhood can never be made up. They’re never the same. There is something missing. It makes me realize more and more the power of motherhood but THE POWER OF THE MOTHER IN THE HOME! Amen!

Michael: Yes. You say it so well, too. By the way, just a little sidebar. I can hear Mama Nancy talk for centuries and never get tired. You’re so eloquent, and you’re so poetic and colorful and passionate! I love you. But that aside, aside from the fact that I love you lots and lots, I find motherhood so interesting because you say moms in the home. Our mom was in the home.

Later on, she worked because we needed the money and Dad was struggling. But she was there for those formative years when I was a youth. I watch animals. I watch mama bears. I watch lions and lionesses. There’s something special about the mother and her cubs that is so primally beautiful and so natural and so secure. I like the way you put it too.

Nancy: It’s interesting, Michael, that you should say that, because I’ve just been studying recently the relationship of mammals and their young.

Michael: But you save the world!

Nancy: But I’m astounded, because their intensity of love and commitment to their little babies is often more than we who are humans! You can’t believe it! They nurse their babies longer than human mothers. There’s such an incredible bond. I think of that Scripture which says, “Doth not even nature itself teach you?” It should be natural to the human mother, even more than the normal mammal.

But we are so, sadly today, people are so indoctrinated by our culture, that even the instinct of motherhood is brainwashed out of them. It’s there, but they’ve got all this brainwashing. So, they don’t live in the fullness and the joy of how God created them to be as a mother. It’s lovely to have examples like your Mom and have a song about it! Oh, I think we need more songs about mothers!

Michael: I often say in concerts, I say to the crowd, “Where are all the moms? Moms, raise the hand. Where are the dads? Dads, I’m a man, not a dad, but I love you. I’m glad you’re part of the family. Mom couldn’t have done it alone, couldn’t have done it by herself. Dads are needed, but Moms are the bomb.” I say, “Moms are the bomb.”

I always had, because of my Mom, respect for women on another level that parent their kids well, that raise them well, that teach them the way of faith. Because Dad’s the enforcer, but Mom shapes a lot of what the kid, in the home, what the kid is to become, what the kid can become.

Nancy: You wouldn’t be where you are today, without your mother.

Michael: No two ways about it!

Nancy: Oh, yes! Well, let me ask you something else. All you wonderful ladies, you know so much about me, and you know so much about my daughters. They write in Above Rubies. Of course, most of you know about Trim Healthy Mama, so you’re all involved in that.

                                                                                                                             

Serene and Pearl have their new thing that they’re doing now, for Treasure Hunters. You can click on that and be part of that and you’re finding everything about them, what they’re doing every day, every moment of their lives. In fact, I only got onto Treasure Hunters myself just recently because I was getting so jealous, because everybody else was telling me things that my daughters were doing. I didn’t have a clue, because they’re so busy! Goodness!

Although we long to be together, often we’re so busy, we don’t even get time to talk. I thought, “Wow! I can get on, so I’ll be observing every moment of their every day.”

But not many of you know very much about my sons, because my sons aren’t going to write in Above Rubies. You don’t get to hear about them so much. But Michael, you are working with my son Steve every day!

Michael: I know all the skinny!

Nancy: Oh, wow! What secrets have you got about him that I don’t even know?

Michael: Steve Campbell reminds me most of all your sons I know but I know Wesley and  Steve the best. They’re two of my besties. Steve reminds me the most of you because he’s a storyteller. On the bus, Sidney came with me today. Sidney knows the dirt on the bus. The show’s over with. We hit the bus. We bus through. We start talking about life, the concert, and just random stories. Steve is the most colorful storyteller on the planet!

Nancy: Well, he is just the most colorful person!

Michael: He really is. He’s right up there with you, Mama Nancy. He’s right up there with you. Steve has such a servant’s heart. He aims to please and he serves the Newsboys. He’s too much of a servant. I love his little heart. When he doesn’t get something right, and he kills it, and I go, “Hey Steve, we needed this,” or “I wanted that.” Maybe he goes, “Oh, Tait, did I really mess up?” He wants to make it right. He’s been that way for 30 years plus. Any dirt on Steve? Nothing really bad on Steve. He’s a good kid. I’m sure you took some dirt about me so I won’t throw it back.

Nancy: He’s a good kid? I think he’s older than you!

Michael: Well, yes, but I still call him a kid. [laughter] The Bible says, in Psalm 103 that we are all young in His Presence. We’re all kids. We’re going to live forever. He’s a great husband. I watch how he loves his wife.

Nancy: Yes, he’s a great husband.

Michael: That says a lot about a man. He loves his wife and his kids. He loves, he cherishes Simone. That speaks volumes about him.

Nancy: That is a beautiful thing, because it’s not an easy life on the road.

Michael: It isn’t.

Nancy: He’s been on the road their whole marriage.

Michael: He comes off the road. We came off the road on Sunday and today he left. Up in the mountains with his wife, on the motorcycle ride.

Nancy: Oh, yes! That’s the beautiful thing, especially as the children grew, and they’re all older now. The moment he comes in off the road, he’s with Simone, and they’re going off on their motorbike, off to some little place, hiding away.

Michael: His flower, his little rose.

Nancy: They have a beautiful relationship. They have the most wonderful life. They have the most adventurous life together.

Michael: They do.

Nancy: It’s so wonderful. But we love it when Stevie comes out, and they come out for a meal. Oh, goodness me! It’s not boring! It is hair-raising! We usually get into politics.

Michael: We do too, yeah!

Nancy: Well, Simone doesn’t really like that. She knows it’s going to get loud. And Simone is soft and sweet. She doesn’t really like it getting loud. But we get loud! Louder and louder and LOUDER!

Michael: I will add this point: one thing about Steve Campbell that sometimes I want to grab him around the neck and choke a little bit, is when the morning comes on the tour bus, he gets up early. When he gets up, you might as well wake up, because he TALKS SO LOUD AND EVERYBODY HAS TO BE AWAKE! “HEY MICHAEL, YOU’VE GOT A MEETING AT ONE O’CLOCK! ARE YOU AWAKE?” “Well, I am now, Steve!” [laughter] He has a powerful voice.

Nancy: And he keeps everything going, doesn’t he?

Michael: He does.

Nancy: Really, it’s interesting, how he’s always been a hard worker and a servant. In fact, it was just that way. Wes and Steve have always been so close. But Wes was getting the great ideas. Steve was told what to do! [laughter] He’d be always doing this, and Steve would always do it! He could never accomplish anything without Steve because he was the one who did it!

Michael: It takes two, you know?

Nancy: It takes two. And that’s the amazing thing, isn’t it, with our children. It’s so amazing. Not one is the same. Everyone is unique, and everyone has been God-ordained and God-planned. I look at those two, and how they’re so different, unbelievably different, but how their whole ministry blends together. They work together.

Michael: You spoke earlier about a mom’s being home, and the importance of a mom being home, at home, with their kids, raising their kids, not just dropping them off into a daycare five days a week. But I can see the mark Mama Nancy Campbell has made on Steven Campbell and Wesley Campbell. I’ve known them for 30-plus years. I know them very, very, very, very well. I can see you in both of them in different ways.

Nancy: Wow!

Michael: It’s always fun to come to a gathering with the Campbells, or to Michael’s birthday a couple of weeks ago. I missed your sixtieth; sorry about that.

Nancy: Yes! I was like, “Why didn’t you invite Michael?” It was a surprise, so I didn’t know who they were inviting! Wow! They missed out!

Michael: I could have sung you a song.

Nancy: I missed out! You could have sung for us!

Michael: I know it. I would have.

Nancy: It was so terrible.

Michael: I would have because you’re my sweet darling, Nancy. I sure would have.

Nancy: You’re going to come to our seventieth wedding anniversary!

Michael: We’ll do it! Is that the jubilee? The jubilee is fifty, right?

Nancy: Yes, fifty is the jubilee, yes.

Michael: But you definitely made an impact on your kids. I know Rocky . . .  I kind of know Rocky a little bit, but I know Steven and Wesley better.  

Nancy: Well, you work with them all the time. What about any secrets about Wes? He’s quite different from Steve, isn’t he?

Michael: Oh, Wes Campbell? He always has a plan. I’m not sure what it is, but he always has a plan. And they usually work. Don’t tell him I told you that, or he’ll get the big head. [laughter] I think he’s part genius. He really is.

Nancy: How is Newsboys going?

Michael: Newsboys is going great. We’re on a new tour. It’s probably my favorite tour, Mom, in 14, 13-1/2 years.

Nancy: Really? Why is that?

Michael: It’s AN EVENING WITH THE NEWSBOYS. Something about the evening. . . well, we do 28 songs which I’ve never done in my life.

Nancy: 28?? In one concert? Help!

Michael: Yes, honey. Help, yes. 28, and sometimes we do four shows in a row. Last week there were five shows in a row. This whole thing, Duncan was hurting. His vocal part was very tired. But it’s so inspiring, it’s so encouraging to watch the people respond, because we do a power set of all the big pop songs. You know, “Magnetic,” “Something Beautiful,” “Jesus Freak,” “Miracles,” “’Born Again,” and then we do a broken-down set. We all come to the front of the stage in one line, all five guys, Adam Agee is part of the band now.

We do an acoustic set. We do stuff like “Entertain Angels,” we do “Shine,” we do “One” by U2. We do “In the Light.” It’s all broken down acoustically. We do the last thing we did, “The King’s Song.” “Amazing Love,” and it’s just a God-moment. The Holy Spirit permeates the whole building. Then we take a break from that.

We come back out, and we do a total power worship set. Songs like “I Speak Jesus,” “We Believe,” “He Reigns,” “Your Love Never Fails,” “God’s Not Dead,” “The King is Coming.” People leave there filled up to the hilt because we pray it in, and we pray it out, and we get up there, and we do what we do, Mom.

Nancy: So beautiful. But I want to come. Are you close to Nashville?

Michael: We’re going to be, this weekend we’re in Bowling Green, Kentucky on Friday night, Franklin, North Carolina on Saturday night. Sunday night we’re going to be in Bristol, Tennessee. But look at maybe the next week after that. I think it’s the last four shows on this particular tour. No, we have eight more shows after this weekend.

Nancy: I always love coming to a show.

Michael: I love it when you come to a show. I love it when you come.

Nancy: I love every moment of it. I was talking to Steve. He said that perhaps the one that’s the most current at the moment is “I Speak Jesus.” Sing us a little bit of it.

Michael: [singing]

I just want to speak the Name of Jesus
Over every heart and every mind
I know there is peace within Your presence
I speak Jesus

Your Name is power…

 

You know it.

Nancy: Yes, amen! That’s so beautiful. So beautiful. That’s a beautiful song.

Michael: It is. People cry. I saw a woman the other night, Mom. She had her hands up and she was just bawling through the whole song. I’m sitting there watching them. I’ve done a million concerts in my lifetime. From DC Talk to my solo band, Tait Band, to The Newsboys. The Spirit’s always there, but sometimes it’s just heavier than other times. A few nights ago, it filled that building. I kept the biggest Johnny Appleseed in my throat. I could barely even sing, because the Spirit was so heavy and people were praising God. Post-pandemic, Maskless.

Nancy: Praise the Lord for that!

Michael: Yeah, right! Hands in the air, just really, really loving the fact that we can serve God in our beautiful America. Although we’re divided at times, we’re still America, and God bless this country. We get to serve Him and praise Him freely like that. That’s the best part of my night.

Nancy: Amen. [coughing] Sorry for my little cough that I have.

Michael: You’re allowed to have a cough. You’re human.

Nancy: I love the way also, you Newsboys, you took a stand against all vaccinations and all that junk that was going on. Of course, it was a hard time for you. You couldn’t do anything. Even just recently, you had a tour down in New Zealand, but you cancelled because you refused to take the vaccination.

In fact, I remember one night, Stevie telling me, “You know, we were talking about the vax on the bus.” He said, “I thought I’d just be the devil’s advocate.” He didn’t mean it, but he said, “Well, maybe, if I had to save my wife or something, and I had to be vaxed for that, well, I’d take it.”

He said that before he had got the words out of his mouth, every single guy, all the Newsboys band, on the bus, they all had him down on the ground, pummeling him, that he would even say such a thing! He was just being a devil’s advocate. [laughter] But it shows you that they were strong about it.

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Nancy: And I love hearing that.

Michael: Mom, it’s just another cold, another flu. The covid thing is just another trend.

Nancy: It’s another flu. In fact, one time I got the flu. Really, I’ve got it now. But you know, seasonally, you get these things. I was saying, “Wow! I’m just absolutely famous! I’ve got the flu, and nobody gets the flu, but I’ve got it!” [laughter]

But everybody said they were having the C. Well, I don’t even say the word, because I’m not going to ever get into their . . . I’m not going to even plug into their mandate in the slightest! Or ever will. Even whatever they try do, well, we’re going to resist! Amen?

Michael: Amen! [laughing] Oh, you’re the best!

Nancy: I love coming to the Newsboys, because I will get to see you. We’ll always have a special hug together.

Michael: It’s always good to see you and Papa Colin out in the crowd, smiling. I look at you guys, and I think, “Man! What a beautiful example of God’s grace and God’s providence in your life.” Sixty years of marriage. Tons of kids, tons of grandkids. Vibrant.

Nancy: We have 52 now!

Michael: Good golly, Miss Molly!

Nancy: But then we have loads and loads of great-grandchildren too.

Michael: And then on top of all that, Above Rubies. What a fantastic name for a ministry and an encouragement. Above Rubies says it all. Rubies are a special thing. Above rubies.

Nancy: I know. That’s what God says of a woman. Her price is not above, it’s FAR above rubies. And guess what? Nowhere else in the Bible can you ever find a Scripture that says a man’s price is far above rubies. Wow! We are so special. This is how God sees women and yet now, we’re living in a culture where they want to cancel women.

Michael: Yeah.

Nancy: It’s unbelievable. But why?

Michael: I won’t let that happen. We can’t let that happen.

Nancy: No! The reason is because Satan is behind it. Satan is actually scared of women. That is why he wants to cancel women. Because just think about it. Everyone sitting here in this room, and ladies, there’s quite a lot sitting in the room today! Here we are. We are all unique. We are all doing different and amazing things. You are doing what God has appointed you to do. The thing is, how did we arrive in this room today?

Michael: Through the womb of a woman!

Nancy: You are good! You got it! You got it!

Michael: And not a man. A man cannot be a woman. A woman cannot be a man. I said downstairs Matt Jett earlier. We were talking. He has six daughters. I find it interesting that most of our friends that have kids, the girls are more popular, I think. When couples have babies, it seems that there are more girls in the world than guys. I think God planned it that way. It’s not a mistake. The women are very plenteous on the planet and I like that.

                                                                     

Nancy: Well, the thing is, nothing will happen in this world without the womb of the woman. It was through the womb that Jesus came. God chose to send His beloved Son through the womb of a woman. That is the greatest thing that we could ever, ever even imagine. Mary was so privileged. But we, in a lesser way, we still bring forth the godly seed that will come forth to bring Jesus and His truth into the world. It’s all through the womb of a woman!

Michael: It’s crazy.

Nancy: No wonder the devil’s scared of the woman and scared of the womb!

Oh, Michael, thank you so much for coming today! What we’re going to do now, well, you won’t hear it, but we’re going to play your whole song. We usually play part of it at the beginning, part of it at the end. But today, I want to hear the whole of that beautiful song that Michael wrote about his mother. Thank you. Thank you for coming out. You only had a little bit of time in between.

Michael: I’m glad it worked out. We talked about maybe doing it later in the week, and I was like, I’ve got to make this happen at the beginning of the week, because I’ve got such a busy week. But I wouldn’t have missed this, because you know, you’re my Boo-Boo. As we say in the black world, “You are my Boo-Boo.” Or my “Moo-Moo,” as in my mama.

My mama’s in heaven. My mama’s expecting you to take care of me, Mama Nancy. So, if I do that, I have to take care of you. I thought I’d come in today and be with you because you’re so stinking sweet! I love the idea of this podcast. I love Above Rubies, and that’s why I’m here.

Nancy: Hallelujah! Thank you.

“Lord, we just thank You so much for your goodness. Thank you that Michael could fit this in today, between appointments. Thank You, Lord, that you have raised him up to sing Your Words to multitudes. Thank You for this, Lord God. We thank You for every precious, beautiful child that comes through our wombs.

 

“Oh, Lord, God, thank You. I just ask that You will bless every mother listening, every young person listening. Lord, pour out Your blessing upon them today. Lord, help us all to live according to Your biblical culture, not according to the culture of this world. We ask it in the Name of Jesus. Amen and amen.”

Michael: Amen.

[music]

There was a home in town
Where broken kids, the lost & found
Would come from miles around
Just to see what love was all about
'Cause Momma had a way
Of makin' things okay

She'd cook us our favorite meal
Sit and listen to how we feel
Oh, how the pain was real
How many families would the devil steal?
Momma had a way
Of makin' things okay

In that home
We knew we were safe
To be young enough to dream
Find the faith to believe
And in that home
Love, it had no end
It's where we learned to forgive
In that home

Momma always had the music on
Sometimes loud, sometimes soft
When I asked about her favorite song
She opened the bible to the book of Psalms
She always found a way
To talk about grace

In that home
We knew we were safe
To be young enough to dream
Find the faith to believe
And in that home
Love, it had no end
That's where we learned to forgive
In that home

And on that day I got the news
That Momma's stay here was almost through
I stayed all night by her side
Held her hand, looked in her eyes, and said:
Momma...

When you're home
I know you'll be safe
Strong enough to see
The faith that you believed
And in that home
Life will have no end
I know I'll see you again
In that home
In that home
In that home

Blessings from Nancy Campbell

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www.aboverubies.org

Transcribed by Darlene Norris * This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

 

LIFE TO THE FULL w/ Nancy Campbell

EPISODE 249: Raising Godly Children in an Ungodly Culture, Part 1

Daniel and Allison Hartman from Pensacola join me today as we talk about passing on the baton of God's truth to our children. Are our children growing up with a biblical worldview? We as parents must first have a biblical worldview. What about the church we are attending? Does it have a biblical worldview?

Announcer: Welcome to the podcast, Life to The Full, with Nancy Campbell, founder and publisher of Above Rubies.

Nancy Campbell: Hello, ladies! It’s always so great to be with you. And I have to share some beautiful, wonderful news! That is that last week, Colin and I celebrated our 60^th wedding anniversary. Wow! It doesn’t seem 60 years. It just seems like a blink of our eyes. We’ve been so blessed.

We had one night together at a restaurant with our children and their spouses. That was such a beautiful night. Most amazing conversation, and then the greatest speeches. It ended up that every speech was all about marriage. It was so great!

Then last night, we had a surprise party. We had no idea. Usually, when there’s a surprise going on, I have an inkling. I’m sort of aware of little things that are happening. But I had no idea of this. Actually, I have sitting with me today, and they’re joining me for the podcast, Daniel and Allison Hartman, from Pensacola. Now, Allison has joined with me many times. Each time they come up to stay, we do a podcast together.

This time, Allison called and said, “You know, we’ve got a free weekend. We thought we’d come and spend it with you before we get back to our busy season.” I said, “Oh, that sounds so lovely!” Had no idea they were actually coming up for our surprise 60th!

On the Sunday night, they said, “We’re going to go out! We’re taking you out for a meal.” There was another couple, also. They said, “They’re over at the Wedding Barn. We’ll just have to go and get them.” We drove over to the Wedding Barn which is on Sam and Serene’s property.

I get out of the car and go running in. I thought, “Better get these people! We’re going to be late!” I opened the door, and I could not believe it! There were all these people, all our family, and children and grandchildren, and friends from many, many places. I just could not believe it. It was such a glorious night, just wonderful speeches, and a beautiful meal, and everything. I hope you enjoyed it!

Allison: Oh, it was so wonderful!

Daniel: Amazing!

Allison: Yes, yes. Just the look on your face was amazing! You were so shocked!

Daniel: I saw you from the back as you were running in, saying, “Let’s in the car and go!” I saw you stop, almost like, what is going on?

Allison: It seemed like it took a minute for you to really soak it in what was happening.

Nancy: Yes.

Allison: There were so many people, though, that were so happy to rejoice with you guys. Yeah, it was such a beautiful scene. All the speeches! I loved all the speeches by your grandchildren. They had so many, looking back on . . . your impact on their lives was precious to hear.

Nancy: We were talking in our last two sessions about how we, as a family, love speeches. It was so beautiful.

So, here are Daniel and Allison. They are with us. We’ll do a podcast together. Allison, I think you’ll need to remind everybody about the big family retreat coming up in Florida.

Allison: Yes, yes. We’re super excited! We’re just a month and a half away. Every year we do our annual Above Rubies Family Camp on the Gulf Coast at Panama City Beach, Florida. The location is Laguna Beach Christian Retreat Center. The dates are April 19-26.

It has turned out to be, over the last ten, fifteen years, the largest family camp. Right now, we’re hitting about 95 families that have already registered. We probably have room for maybe five to ten more families before we’re maxed out. It’s going to be a week-long retreat, conference. Tons of fun.

Our theme that we’re going for, is “Raising a Godly Family in an Ungodly Culture.” We all see where culture’s heading. As Christians, we really have to take a different direction on raising our children. It’s not that we can’t do it, it’s that we have to be very intentional in how we’re raising them. Not just be willing to go with the flow, go with culture. If culture says let your children all have iPhones, then we just do it. No, we raise them in a different way.

This whole week is going to be encouraging families to do that. Also, just meeting other families is so encouraging. Like-minded families. You’re going to be blown away. I was just talking to a family last night. They said, “When I came to the retreat, I realized I’m not alone. There are so many of my people out there. I just didn’t even know it.”

Nancy: Yes, actually it’s a family retreat, but we love all the young people. Bring all your young people! Oh, we have more young people than anyone else, don’t we?

Allison: Oh, absolutely! The adults are completely outnumbered. It’s more like a big, giant youth retreat, but we don't separate the youth. It’s so much fun. It’s on the Gulf, so you’re on the beach. We have five or six pools. There’s volleyball, there’s basketball, there’s bunker ball. You name it. There’s every activity you can imagine. Walking distance, too, are a coffee shop and donuts. So much fun. Fishing.

Daniel: If the surf’s up, I’m out surfing. I’ll add that there’s a little lake right there that we go out in the boat as well, and let people ski.

Allison: Lots of good free time in the afternoons. A good chunk of the afternoon is free time. It’s such a fun thing to do with your family. But yeah, young people, singles, single moms, grandparents, the whole thing is, everyone’s invited.

Nancy: Yes, we believe in bringing the whole family together. In fact, generations. We can have four generations there. We had another baby shower on the weekend. We had a bridal shower the weekend before. Our lives seem to be going from one bridal shower to one baby shower to another.

I was taking a four-generation picture of myself as the great-grandmother, Serene as the grandmother, Chalice as the mother (who’s due in one week) and then her little baby, Marvel. It’s so wonderful to live generationally. It’s a beautiful thing to do.

When you go away for a week, I remember when we lived in New Zealand. Back in those days, we would have our annual holiday. We would take, of course, our whole family, but we never thought of ever going without our grandparents! My parents who were the children’s grandparents. They lived in a different city, but they would always come and meet and be with us. That was such an important part for my children.

So, bring your parents along too! The grandparents, or whether they’re grandparents, or great-grandparents! You just bring everybody! It’s so great.

Allison: My last thing to say: we led your ladies’ retreats for years, or I did. But when you get the whole family involved, it’s a long-lasting effect, because when you have your husband on board, and you have your children on board . . . We have eleven children, and they range from 24 down to two. My entire family is there, and they all want to be there, because we’ve made them feel like this is a family thing. This isn’t Mom going off to a ladies’ retreat.

Now, that’s fine, and that’s fun and wonderful. But when you have the whole family there, it brings a whole different facet to this message. Because you’re all on board, if that makes sense.

Nancy: Yes. And then, talking about this familyness, this togetherness, now you have just recently begun having a church family in your home, because you haven’t been able to find that real family togetherness anywhere else, although you tried for years.

Allison: We really have. We bounced from a couple of churches. Sadly, one thing we really found was that most churches are very program-driven. Program-driven means “age-chunking.” I liked how Suzanne said that “age-chunking.” The older folks, you go to your class, and then the younger folks, you go to your class. And the Generation X-er’s, you go to your class, and then the Generation Y, there’s so many. Then the young children, you go to your class. The babies, you go to your class.

Well, guess what? When you walk into church, you’re immediately divided. Juh, juh, juh, juh, juh, juh. There is no unity. Therefore, the opposite of unity would be division. Then, when you get home, you all hear ten different messages. You’re not on the same page.

Then you start the work week. Well, guess what? Dad goes to work, Mom’s at home, the children are in programs and sports. It’s continual. We said, “We’ve got to get unified. We have to do church as a family.” So, we sought out. . .

Daniel: The best way that I like to say it is, everyone wants my children. They’re a valuable asset. I want my children. I want to have that influence in my children’s life, truly based on that verse, “Turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children’s to the father’s.”

It is my duty to have the Bible study at home, and then to worship together, and to do everything together. Truly that is the Biblical concept. There are never these programs. It’s always when the church is pictured, it’s fathers, mothers, children, together in the Lord, and learning and growing together.

Nancy: Oh yes, yes! Anyway, you were telling me you’re going, at the moment, to a Biblical world view class which sounds great. But, tell me all about what’s happened there.

Allison: Well, we’ve actually done this course before, a year ago. It’s called “Biblical Citizenship.” Rick Green is a state rep in Texas. It’s a great program. Rick Green and . . .

Daniel: David Barton. WallBuilders.

Allison: David Barton, WallBuilders, and Kirk Cameron. They do this video series. So anyway, we took the class. Just recently, we found out that the class is offered in our town at another church. We don’t go there, but it seems like a great church.

Well, when we went, it was all older folks in the class. There were five or six older people. The first night we went, we brought our children, because that’s what we do. Then the next night, we invited two or three other families. By that week, we had 26 extra people there. Most of them were children.

Nancy: And by the way, right down to your youngest, how old?

Allison: All the way to my two-year-old. We were all listening. They all were gleaning different things. Even though maybe the four-year-old wasn’t getting the whole message, they got some stuff out of it.

Sadly, we were told by the leader of the class that there were some complaints about noise, because there were children in an adult class. They really wanted all the children that were in fifth grade and under to be in a children’s program. They asked us if we would please do that.

I’ve never been known to be someone who just says, “OK, sure, whatever.” I pretty much argue and fight anything if I feel like it’s a principle. I’m not going to go along with it. I said, “I appreciate you telling me this, but honestly, this is unacceptable. This is not OK. I’m not going to have my children in a program when I’m here to hear about patriotism and the Constitution. I want them to learn what our Founding Fathers did. Our Founding Fathers would be mortified if they found out that children were in a children’s program when they could have been learning!” I said, “No, I’m not OK with that.”

She goes, “Well, what should I do?” She’s actually a city councilwoman in our city. I said, “Go fight for us.” And she did. She went and talked to the church, and they made the decision that they would allow us to come. We would have to take children out that were noisy. I said, “Absolutely. That’s acceptable. That wouldn’t be anything I wouldn’t do anyway.”

We ended up taking the class as a family. But it was so interesting to me that they didn’t see this as an amazing opportunity to have children, fathers, all learning the same thing. It was foreign to them. I don’t think they meant harm. I think it’s all they know. This is what churches are doing. They’re looking just like public school, private school, right? You go, and you separate by age. That’s all they know.

Well, like we said earlier, we feel, me and my husband, we feel like the reason that children are leaving church once they hit that teenage age, is because they really haven’t been a part of their family their whole upbringing. They’ve been in different classes. They’re not a part of their family.

People in our town that know us, they’re amazed at our adult children spending so much time with us, and desiring to be with us. That is why we decided we had to start a family-integrated church in our home, because it was so rare. We want our children to be worshipping together as a family. I think it is so critical.

Nancy: Oh, yes! Yes! I think we have to begin to see and live biblically. It’s so easy to just succumb to what everybody does. Colin and I were just sharing with the folks last night some of our early start of our life and how Colin went out full time for the Lord when we were engaged. We’ve been in mission and church work since that time.

We started off pastoring, doing it the normal way. We had our Sunday schools, and we had our youth groups. We thought this was great, and we had all our programs. Until one day, we discovered that no matter how much we looked, we couldn’t find that in the Word of God. It wasn’t there.

Every time God brought His people together, he brought them all together as families, including the children, including the suckling babes, including even the little toddlers. A number of the Scriptures that talk about when God brought His people to listen to His Word, it uses the word taph in the Hebrew. That particular word means “the tripping gait of little children.” It’s the toddler stage. “Well, those are the ones we just don’t want in our midst! Goodness me! Let’s just have them baby-sat, because how can they sit and listen?”

But God wanted them all there. Even in Joel chapter 2:16 where it talks about coming to fast and pray, even for such a solemn time as that, God includes the suckling babes. Everyone!  God sees us as families. Now, it’s the devil’s ploy to separate us as families.

We had to come to that place of realizing, OK, what we were doing was just what everybody does. Then we began to have church together, families included. That is not actually so popular. You won’t get everybody to your church. Why?

Because when families haven’t trained their children at home, they bring their children, and goodness, how could they even sit and hear a message unless they put their children in the nursery and the Sunday school, because they wouldn’t even know how to control them. But you see, we start in the home. We have to learn how to train our children to sit and how to listen. It’s all training. That’s why many are quite happy to go to their churches where everything is all separate. It’s so much easier.

Allison: Oh, yeah.

Nancy: And even when we’re together, there’s always a little baby crying, or this happening. Some may not like it, but it’s life! We’ve got to learn to live as families.

Allison: The whole concept of this multi-generational church is such a beautiful thing. For a little one, they’re watching everything we do. How are they going to learn to worship if they don’t see their moms worship, and their grandmas worship?

I was telling you before the podcast I actually had someone I talked to in a church one time, and I said, “I don’t see you here every Sunday.” And she said, “Well, it’s because I go to a different church every other Sunday just so I can worship all by myself, with no distractions from my children.” And she was bragging about that, as if it was a really good idea to just go to one. Probably like a girls’ night out with Mom-time, Me-time, Me-time. And she would go to a different church, just to have worship time.

That set so badly with me. I thought there was something that was wrong with that, but for years, I couldn’t put my finger on it until just recently. We watched this documentary called Divided. This young, homeschooled boy . . . it was years ago. A documentary, and we just happened to watch it recently. A light bulb came on as my husband and I were watching this.

The young boy set out to answer the question, why are young people leaving the churches in droves? 85% are leaving the churches. Why? By the end of the documentary, he came up with the answer.

The whole idea of discipling children is the role of the father. But in churches we have replaced that and put youth pastor in its place. A lot of people will say, “Well, the youth pastor is great for the street kids. The unchurched. They don’t have a father, so we need a youth program.”

No, you need fathers in that church to rise up and take in those street kids. That will take care of that problem. But instead of losing your youth, losing your young people, they’re so driven. They’re so connected as a family because the father has been the youth pastor. The father has been the shepherd. It was a game-changer for us.

We talked earlier before the podcast that we actually were asked to leave a church because of this very thing, because they were offended that we wouldn’t send our children to youth groups. They couldn’t understand it. They thought we thought we were better than them. It isn’t about that!

It’s that Daniel’s job, my husband’s job, is to raise our children, not the youth pastor! And there’s nothing that’s innately wrong with having fun youth activities, but when it’s done to replace the father, it’s absolutely detrimental to the family. It has to be. . . You’re right. It’s not in the Bible. These Sunday schools, youth programs, are not in the Bible. It is man’s creation, and it is destroying the family. I just recently realized how important this is.

Nancy: Well, the latest statistics are that only six percent of the church has a biblical worldview. I think this is a part of it, too. Even our worldview of church, in fact, of so many things. I keep finding new things in the Word of God all the time that, wow! I don’t line up with this! We’ve been doing it this way all our lives but it’s not in the Word.

We’ve got to become Word-people. We’ve got to get a true Biblical worldview so that we’re thinking what God thinks, and what He says, and His plan on every issue of our lives. So, of course, a big part of that is our church life. When we bring our children into the church life, we are saying, “Children, this is how it’s meant to be.” Well, are what we bringing them into exactly what it reveals in the church in the Bible?

In fact, it’s interesting, we go back to the early church, and they really are our example, aren’t they? In 1 Corinthians 14:26, this is a picture of the early church. It’s actually quite different to most churches. “How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,” notice that “come together.” Oh, there’s so many Scriptures about that in the Word.

Some Christians today don’t even believe that. They don’t believe you have to come together. “I love God. I believe God but I don’t have to go to church.” They’ve got all their different excuses. But God loves the coming together of His people. He loves it.

“How is it then, brethren? When ye come together.” He knows that we can’t really walk victoriously in our faith isolated. We need one another. Our faith is a mutual faith. It’s a together faith. It’s a me-and-you faith. Romans 1:12 tells us that. Paul is writing to the new Christians, and he says: “Our mutual faith of you and me.”

OK, so you come together, every one of you. It’s not talking about pew-sitters. “No, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done until edifying.” We see there such a coming together and participation of the whole body.

In our fellowship, we usually have someone, my husband, or sometimes someone else, will give a good word so that we are really getting fed, but we have opportunity for sharing from others from the body, because that’s the example of the early church. Today, young children, yes, we do have young children getting up. We have young people who get up and pray and give a word.

In a modern church, they’re all just pew-sitters. How can they ever grow into young men and women of God if they haven’t got an opportunity to share of the Word, or to get up and pray? They’ve got to learn how to participate.

Daniel: That verse, specifically that verse, we started reading each chapter in Corinthians. Because of that verse, I wanted to see, as a family, what the whole book looked like. By the time we got to chapter 12, we actually started our own church. It was because of that specific verse, 1 Corinthians 14:26: “When ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. . . Let all things be done decently and in order,” in order to edify.

I had never really seen that done anywhere other than here at this church. I felt like I was starving for that. If you want to shift gears into the Jesus Revolution movie, that is pictured in that movie to some degree, but not showcased. That is what I would consider to really make a difference in people’s lives.

Myself, I was in a home group in a Calvary Chapel church back in ’91, ’90 -’91. I would say it was a hugely pivotal point in my life, because I grew so incredibly much, because it was in this group setting. It was comfortable. I could speak; I could share my thoughts. I could grow. I was in the Word, just studying all the time.

I did not have a father, so I chose men in this group, and other men to take that role. I was able to choose all these amazing attributes that were good and leave out the ones that I didn’t think were so good. It really helped me. Really, that’s where they met in the New Testament, was in people’s homes.

Going back to “turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers,” that specific verse, when it says it at the very end, it gives a curse to the earth, “I’ll come and strike the land and utterly destroy it.” I’m going to read the whole Scripture. “Remember the law of Moses, my servant, that I gave him at Horeb, for all Israel, both the decrees and the laws. Pay attention. I am sending Elijah the prophet to you before the great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. And He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. Otherwise, I’ll come and strike the land and utterly destroy it.”

Nancy: That’s so powerful, isn’t it?

Daniel: What it says to me is that it’s my job to take that mantle and become that verse. The consequences are great if I don’t. I’ve got to figure out, through the Word, how I’m going to apply and how I’m going to take into account that verse and build God’s church, not mine. Include my children, include families, as God did, as Jesus did, sitting on the hillside, with the men, women, and children, and truly grow together in Christ and walk in the Spirit.

Nancy: Yes. And another thing too, is that we’ve got to get beyond the normal way we see church. That we come to church and that’s doing the right thing, yes. And I believe it. At least, if you’re doing that, you’re doing something, because we know Hebrews 10:24: “Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together.”

YOU CAN’T MISS THE FELLOWSHIP

There’s that “together” again. “As a manner of some is, so much the more as ye see the day approaching.” But church and coming together, you see, it’s a coming together, it’s not just coming just to come in—we worship, we hear a message, and we go home. No, it is fellowship. We go back to the example of the early church in Acts 2:42. What does it say? “And they continued steadfastly.” It tells us four things here.

Number One. IN THE APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE

That was in teaching. Doctrine is so important. In fact, all of Jesus’ teaching, all the apostles’ teaching, all of Paul’s teaching, the whole Word is doctrine. We’ve got to know doctrine. Doctrine has to be part of this. It has to live in us.

I love that Scripture in 2 John 1:9: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he  hath both the Father and the Son.” Isn’t that an amazing Scripture? But we are to continually apply the apostles’ doctrine.

Number two. FELLOWSHIP

We’ve got to have time for fellowship. At our church fellowship here, we always have a fellowship meal after the service. Everyone brings a dish, and we get out the tables and chairs. We sit around and fellowship.

This is really, perhaps, even it’s as great, or even greater, than the first part of our coming together, because we’re having more intimate fellowship. Everyone is talking about their week, but they’re talking about the Lord. They’re talking about Scripture. They’re talking about their ideas. We’re getting to feel one another’s hearts. In fact, I never have time to talk to everyone! You just get to one or two or three each time because you get into conversation.

But it’s so wonderful! I think, wow, if we didn’t have that! I would only know people in a surface way. It’s only when we sit, and we put our feet under a table, and we begin to talk together, that it is true fellowship.

Number three. BREAKING OF BREAD

“And in breaking of bread.” That was not only communion, folks. This is what they called coming together to have a meal. Back in those days, “breaking of bread” (you’ve heard the phrase “break bread together”). That’s where you actually break bread.

In the Middle East, when you eat, you break the bread. You break the flat bread and you dip it in the dish, in the hummus, in the baba ghanoush. You’re eating together. You see, fellowship is always more powerful when you’re eating together. Either after church together, a fellowship meal, or when you’re inviting people to your home and showing hospitality. We do this now.

But we have also been in churches where we didn’t have fellowship meals. When that was the case, we always invited people home. We would have up to thirty or forty people coming into our home. We’d have them just sitting around our big table, and then our children would find another place, because they’d invite their friends. It was fellowship going on throughout the whole home. Because this is the pattern of the early church.

Number four. PRAYERS

“And in prayers.” They were committed to prayer. That is so powerful, too. So, if you just go to church on Sunday, but you’re not involved in a prayer meeting in that church fellowship, or with other believers, it’s not really, it’s not the early church.

CONTINUING DAILY

Then it goes on, down in the latter part of the chapter, verse 46: “And they continuing,” again, it’s “continuing.” “Continuing daily, with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house.” They ate together at one another’s homes. “And ate their meat,” their food, “with gladness and singleness of heart, having great fellowship together, praising God, and having favor with all the people, and the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” When they lived that lifestyle, daily, the Lord added daily to the church.

Allison: So good. I was asking you yesterday what should we do? We’re a brand-new church, starting a church in our home. I was trying to decide, do we do a fellowship meal? Maybe once a month? So, I sat my family down and we talked about it. My older girls are the ones that are going to be fixing food. I didn’t want to make the decision for everybody.

I thought, “Hey, what do we think? Do we want to do just once a month?” And all of them said, “Why would we not do it every week? That’s the best part, Mom. You know, having everybody go outside, play volleyball together, the fellowship part. Unanimously my children decided. I thought they would say, “You know, we really need to have family time, at least every couple of weeks.” But no, they didn’t look at it as a negative. They looked at it as a positive. Of course, they’d want fellowship the whole time.

Nancy: Yes, and that’s what our children growing up, they just loved the fellowship, the hospitality. It was such a blessing. In fact, I can remember one time in our lives. It was a time when we were raising our children. We were always having hospitality.

I said to Colin, “Oh, Darling, let’s just have a break this one Sunday. We’re always having people. Just let us ask nobody this Sunday.” So, we didn’t. We all came home, and do you know what? It was the most boring Sunday of our whole lives! [laughter] We didn’t know what to do. We were bored out of our brains. We never ever did it again!

Allison: Really!

Nancy: The children were bored and we were bored. I think, “People go home after church, what do they do?” Well, of course, I know, many just put the TV on, or they go out to sports, or they go out. But that’s not what we’re meant to do. This is the day for His people. It’s not an hour. It’s a day. It’s a DAY we give to the Lord. But anyway, why does time go?

Allison: I know! It’s amazing.

Nancy: One more advertisement for the retreat!

Allison: This totally takes us back into where we said in the beginning, the whole reason why we started doing these family camps was to give vision to families, that they’re so important. Your ministry has, yes, people think of your ministry as a women’s ministry. But it really isn’t. It’s a family, it’s the whole concept, it’s the whole picture of families being together.

The beauty of these family camps is, number one, you can come and have a wonderful, fun family vacation. But you can meet other like-minded families and you will be amazed. You will leave, come as strangers, leave as friends. So many people at your party last night were from the retreats.

One of them came up to me, and they said, “You know, we told Nana and Granddad how thankful we are of watching them. But we really want to tell you, thank you for putting these retreats on! Some of my best friends now we met at the retreat.”

We’re going to encourage moms and dads to raise their children in a godly way and not just go with culture. Part of that is not just being involved in a church and dividing up your family. Don’t feel like that’s something you have to do! You can start a different way of doing things. It’s going to be a good thing for your family.

Daniel: Like-minded children. Your children seeing other like-minded children could save them from the world. If that doesn’t happen, it’s best if there’s no outside influences that could steal their heart. Whereas, when other children are in the same, exact, like-minded situation, it changes your children for the better. I see it every time.

Nancy: Amen! That’s so powerful, Daniel. And just before I’m going to ask you to close in prayer today, I want to remind you ladies, don’t forget to tune in next week, because I’m going to be interviewing Michael Tate, the lead singer of the Newsboys.

You’re most probably aware that every podcast starts with and ends with a song written by Michael, that beautiful song, “In That Home” which he wrote about his mother. His mother had the biggest, biggest heart that reached out to so many hurting souls. You’ll hear more about that next week. I’m sure you’re going to love it. Your young people will all want to tune in as well. So, can you pray, Daniel?

Daniel: Dear God, thank You for this time to think on You, to think on Your Word, to think on Your kingdom, God. I speak a blessing over each individual that’s listening right now, God. Just touch them in a special way, God. Let these words sink into their hearts and minds, God. Give us all Your mantle of wisdom to walk with You with all our hearts, souls, minds, and strength, and love each other as ourselves. In Jesus’ Name, amen.

Nancy: Amen!

Blessings from Nancy Campbell

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Transcribed by Darlene Norris * This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

ABOVE RUBIES FAMILY RETREAT IN FLORIDA

April 19 - 26th at Laguna Beach Christian Resort

This is our biggest retreat serving over 100 families during our week of fellowship, sessions with Nancy and Colin Campbell, breakout sessions with gifted speakers and teachers, family activities, and incredible worship! Come as a friend and leave as family!

If you aren’t already registered, sign up now! We still have room!

Registration fee $300 (non-refundable).

Housing is assigned through Above Rubies    but payment for your housing will go directly to Laguna. Click here for the website to register:

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