PODCAST TRANSCRIPT | EPISODE 247: Preparing Your Children to Speak in the Gates
LIFE TO THE FULL w/ Nancy Campbell
EPISODE 247: Preparing Your Children to Speak in the Gates
Welcoming Kevin and Bonnie Kookogey to the podcast today. Kevin and Bonnie have been homeschooling for over 20 years. Kevin shares how he has taken his responsibility as a homeschooling father, and how he also prepared his children to be prepared to be speakers.
We talk about the importance of speeches, which is a dying art. Although it was mandatory for a bridegroom to give a speech at his wedding, this rarely happens today. Kevin and Bonnie share how they prepared their children to be ready to give a speech on any occasion.
Announcer: Welcome to the podcast, Life to The Full, with Nancy Campbell, founder and publisher of Above Rubies.
Nancy Campbell: Hello, ladies! Great to be with you again! Today I have two special guests with me, Kevin and Bonnie Kookogey. We were just talking together before we started this podcast and realized that we have actually known each other for 31 years! I simply can’t believe that!
Kevin has been very involved with my son, Wes Campbell, who owns the NEWSBOYS, so we often meet together on functions with the Newsboys, or things like that. We met again recently, and this is why I have asked them to come.
But before we even get onto that, I must introduce you to them, so you can hear them and know who is on the podcast today. Kevin and Bonnie, it’s so great to have you. Maybe you can tell the folks how many children you have and their names. You’ve been homeschooling them all your life, haven’t you? OK, let’s hear from you!
Kevin: All right, I’ll start, and then I’ll pass it off to my wife. Kevin Kookogey. First of all, Nancy, thank you for having us. We do appreciate it. Always a privilege to be in the company of your family for the 31 years. Those events, over the years, initially were extensions of the professional environment. But now we always look forward to them because we are like family. We’ve become friends over this and we feel that it’s a mutual benefit.
We’ve always believed that God has had His hand on the Campbell/Kookogey connection. I didn’t know it when we moved to Nashville in 1992, but when I met Wes, it was the beginning of a beautiful friendship and a beautiful relationship.
Bonnie and I have been blessed with six children. Their ages are 26, almost 26 and almost 16, so it's a ten-year gap. We have five daughters and one son. Our oldest two are married. We’ve had our first grandchild in the past year, who’s now eight months old, Olivia.
The children’s names: Chloe’s the oldest. She lives in Atlanta with her husband. Carmel is our second oldest. She’s the one who is the mother of our grandchild, Olivia. She and her husband live in Hillsdale, Michigan. Rachel also lives in Michigan. She is our third. She’s unmarried. Naomi is our fourth. She is living in middle Tennessee with us which is a great privilege, because we were quickly going to be empty nesters.
Our son Willis, who’s number five, is in school in Texas at LeTourneau, which is a Christian engineering school in Long View, Texas. He’s a freshman. And then Sophia, our baby. She’s finishing her driving school and will have her license. So, I’ve finished my job of teaching six children to drive in the next couple of weeks.
Nancy: Oh, that’s so great. Did you want to say anything, Bonnie? You’ve been the homeschooler, but I know Kevin’s been very much involved in that too.
Bonnie: Oh, yes, completely involved!
Nancy: Yes, so wonderful! It’s a wonderful thing, because often homeschooling is left to the mother, but you guys have been involved in it together. That’s such a beautiful thing.
Bonnie: Yes, it’s been a great thing to have his support. I’m more of a math/science kind of girl, so I would focus on that. He would focus on the memorization when we did the memorization that we’ll get into. I was making the pancakes and the bacon so we’d have a nice breakfast around the table, that sort of thing. We just tag teamed.
Kevin: Yeah, it’s an important point to make, though, because when we first got into homeschooling, I still knew a number of parents who, one or the other, usually it was left to the mother.
I one time met a homeschool father from Chicago, strong family, married, and no issues, but the father was primarily responsible. He worked a day job, blue collar worker, so he did his homeschool in the evening which I found incredibly challenging. In the morning, you’re fresh. We do everything best in the morning.
I asked him, and he had six or seven children. I asked him how he was able to do that. It was more of a mindset. He said early on he knew he wasn’t going to be able to change his employment, but they were so committed to homeschooling that over time they disciplined themselves that that was the place where God allowed them to have the energy. So, he got home from work and began his homeschooling journey.
That’s an unusual case, but it’s so important that the parents be involved together, just like in raising your children. This is an extension of raising your children, the academic process. Again, by God’s blessing, I was always able and privileged to be able to set my schedule a little bit differently.
The nature of my work as an entertainment lawyer is global in nature because of the music industry. Music is global. It also crosses time zones. So, I pretty much have to determine when I turn it off. It will always be on. Because of that, I figured out, OK, I can spend the first couple of hours of each day making sure my children are off on the right track, and getting things situated. Then I would leave it off to Bonnie.
The next day I would come in at the same time, so I was the impetus to get it going, and then Bonnie made sure that everything was followed through. She was grading papers, and helping with questions along the way. But because of that, I would spend the first couple of hours, wouldn’t go to work and begin work until 10 AM. But then my work would extend later into the night. But again, that’s the privilege of having been self-employed for all of these years, to be able to do that.
Nancy: I think that is wonderful to see the father beginning each day. What a marvelous thing that is for the children! It’s so great. That brings me to the last time we met, only a few weeks ago.
It was our grandson’s 21st birthday. My son Wes decided that, yes, they were going to have a 21st birthday. I know that here in the States, when a young person turns 18, they’re coming of age. But back where we come from, New Zealand, it’s not until 21. Back in my day, and in my son’s day, the 21st birthday was a very big thing. In fact, you always had a big party, and the parents would give the one who just turned 21 the key of the door. They actually got a key. Did you know that?
Kevin: No.
Nancy: Yes, it would be a key. It could be made of glass, made of special cardboard, or made ornamental. It was always a beautiful key. It was something that they could put up on the wall afterwards. Usually, it was done in a way where there was room for people who were at the party to sign the key.
It was to show that now, at 21, they had come of age. They had the key to the door of the home. Well, they most probably had it before. But that was official. [laughter] It was a great big party. I think Wes was reminiscing back and decided he would do it for Michael. I have to say, and I think you would agree, it was a wonderful night.
Kevin: Oh, it was beautiful.
Bonnie: Yes.
Nancy: I just love the vision they both had. Tracy called and said, “OK, we’re doing this 21st birthday for Michael. We don’t want you to even bring presents.” But she said, “I want you to write something that would really impact Michael’s life. Something that he can take into his life with him for the future. Something really powerful.” That was her burden. She put that on everyone.
So, when we arrived, we had to come with what we had written for Michael. That was so great. Colin and I spent a lot of time praying about what we should write, so we could really give something into his life. But that wasn’t the end! Then we had a beautiful sit-down meal.
Then it was time for speeches. Not only was Michael getting all this written stuff that he could keep for life, but the speeches began. Everyone was so powerful. Every speech was not just some bit of fluff. It was something that really spoke into his life, that encouraged him in the Lord. Oh, I don’t think any young man could get anything better, could they?
Bonnie: No.
Nancy: It was so great!
Bonnie: We walked away feeling so blessed by what was said, even though it was said and directed to him. We felt so encouraged. It was awesome!
Nancy: Yes, I thought, “My, if every young man and every young daughter could have that as they’re going into life, it would be so amazing.” Speeches have always been part of the Campbell lifestyle. We’ve always believed in speeches. In fact, also wedding speeches!
I can’t believe that here in America, speeches are kind of fallen away. You go to a wedding today, and you have the service, and then you have the reception and the cake. Everybody starts drifting away. There’s not a speech or anything! Help! Back in New Zealand, this was traditional. You had actually traditional speeches that had to be made.
You always had the speech from the bride’s family. Someone was chosen to represent the bride’s family, and to tell all the stories about the family so the other family is getting to know them. Then the bridegroom’s family would choose someone who would speak about their family. Then, of course, the father of the bride, and then the father of the groom.
Then the best man, and then, of course, the speech of the day from the groom. He had to be ready to give a speech. Part of his speech would be to thank everyone who had participated in preparing for the wedding, and to thank his parents for what they had done for him throughout his life. Then, of course, to say whatever he wanted to say on his heart. I remember when we got married, I think Colin’s speech was about half an hour. [laughter] In fact, just about every speech was! We were the family of speechmakers.
Then I remember Wes’s wedding himself. We had all the official speeches, but then we opened it up to anyone who would like to speak into their lives. Wow! It was speech after speech after speech, and story after story. Oh, it was always the best part of all our weddings. Well, forgive me, I want to get back to what we were going to talk about, but I must tell you this.
Then, we came to the States. OK, some of our children were married in Australia. Then we came to America and Evangeline was getting married. We had just arrived in the States. She was in Minneapolis, so we drove all the way up to Minneapolis. We hired an apartment, rented an apartment, then began to put on and prepare for a wedding in a city where we’d never lived.
We prepared. We put on all the food and we prepared it ourselves. We were cooking for days before. We put on this wedding. And I blissfully and ignorantly thought it would be just like it was back in New Zealand and Australia where we had just come from. Because although we’re New Zealanders, we then lived ten years in Australia before we got here to the States.
We had the service. We had the reception and everybody’s eating all this great food we’ve prepared. And we’re just getting ready for the speeches! And I’m noticing people disappearing! Yes, this one’s going, and this one’s going. It dwindled down. We were ready for speeches, the greatest part of the day! But there were only a few left! I simply could not believe it! Goodness me! They just went!
Really, to me, a wedding is a very important occasion. I don’t believe we go to a wedding as a token thing. We go, and then we go away. We should really give ourselves. That was very, very disappointing to me.
So then, a little time went on, and then Serene was to be married. By this time, we were in Tennessee. I thought, “What am I going to do?” I wrote it on the invitation. “OK, at our reception, at this wedding reception, we will be having speeches. We would like you to stay to the end.” I put something like that. It was many years ago now. I actually felt like putting, “And we will be locking the doors until the end.” [laughter] I didn’t put that. [laughter]
Kevin: That invitation was more of a warning, right? [laughter]
Nancy: It was so amazing. Actually, it was so great. In some ways, it was sort of, “Oh dear, we didn’t have a beautiful sunny day.” In fact, even as we were driving to the service, it was downpouring! It was cold and raining, but where we had the reception was a beautiful place, with a big fire going. It was so cozy and lovely. I think nobody wanted to go out into the cold and the rain anyway.
But everybody stayed, and oh! The speeches were wonderful. Not only the official ones, but then we opened it up to whoever would like to speak. The stories, and the sharing, and the speaking into their lives. It was so wonderful.
I do think that needs to come back to weddings. I believe that people need to be. . . The trouble is, people are not prepared to give speeches. They don’t know what to say. So, that gets me onto why I have Kevin and Bonnie here today.
Because, at Michael’s 21st, nearly everybody gave a speech. Then Kevin got up to give his. Wow! He began to quote these great quotes of great men of past ages. Then he moved on to the Scriptures, and he would quote them. Back to great quotes of people of the past, who said such great things. Wow! It was so impressive.
I was talking to him afterwards, and I said, “Kevin, that was so great! When did you learn all these great quotes?” We got talking, and he began to share that not only did he learn this, but this was part of their family homeschooling! Not only did he know these things, but they have taught their family, all their children. So, tell us more! We want to hear all about it.
Kevin: Ok. That is a great set-up because it is true. I wish I had begun earlier. I think what was most compelling to me is that we did not start this journey until 2010 of serious devotion to memorization. This means that Sophia, our youngest, would have been three. Chloe would have been 13.
I grew up in a small Presbyterian church in Pennsylvania. Memorization was always encouraged, but it was never enforced. I would memorize Scripture and memorize speeches and whatnot for school but it would be short-term memory. I would never keep up with it.
The real inflection point for me was when I was in law school, in fact, it was the year that Bonnie and I had gotten married. I heard someone say that they had memorized the entire book of Colossians. That fascinated me. I thought, “What?” I’m used to memorizing little passages of Scripture, right? Important phrases. And so, when I heard that, I took the challenge.
What I did, this is my second semester of my third year of law school. I decided that, by the end of the semester, when I graduate from law school, I’m going to have memorized the entire book of Colossians. I did! It was successful. I had a 45-minute drive where I went to Temple Law School in Philadelphia. We lived 45 minutes outside the city. So, every day I would memorize going to and from school. By the end of the semester, I had the entire book of Colossians, four chapters, memorized.
Well, my weakness was, after I moved to Nashville and was getting into the music business, I didn’t stay on top of that. I eventually lost that. All that work I retained probably for about a year, and I lost it, because. . .
Nancy: It’s so true, because one of the biggest secrets of memorization is recapitulation. You’ve got to keep on.
Kevin: Absolutely! I was determined to invigorate that practice with my children when they were young. We began a journey in 2010, that one day a week our homeschooling would be devoted to memorization. You can see, Nancy, I told you we got to 100 just last year with Sophia, so the older ones didn’t quite get to 100.
But so your listeners can get an idea of the types of things we memorize, I would say about half of this memory list is comprised of Scripture. But some of the other things, the longer things we would memorize. . . All of my children memorized the Declaration of Independence. It takes about ten minutes to recite at a good even pace that is understandable.
Nancy: That’s great! Most people don’t even know it, let alone memorize it!
Kevin: Yeah, let alone having it memorized. We would do it to music. In some situations, we would do different passages to music. The Declaration of Independence actually took us six months of Wednesdays to learn. We would map out a section, and I would draw it on a whiteboard, a combination of funny cartoons, and mnemonics, and words on the board. Our children would write it.
We wanted to do it in commonplace books, but I didn’t get this until too late, so most of it was all on yellow notepads. They would draw these little pictographs and word phrases. Then we would rehearse it. As we added each week, we would always start off with what I called our “inventory.” We would go through and rehearse everything that we had learned to that point, and then start adding anew. Over a period of 13 years, Sophia and I still do it every Thursday on the way to tutorial.
I wanted to give an idea and a sense of some of the things that we’ve memorized. Some are very short. Some are very long. The Declaration of Independence is probably the longest thing that we have memorized. Quotations from Henry V’s Christmas Day Speech are my favorite passages.
A number of Shakespeare, T. S. Elliot, Thomas Browne’s Christian Morals, which I quoted, and I can quote for you in a bit, at Michael’s 21st. Some Robert Frost poetry, Gettysburg Address, speeches from Ronald Reagan, Edmund Burke, Churchill, Charles McKay, George Orwell, Jane Austin, Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Dorothy Sayers, Abraham Kuyper.
But what’s interesting is, if you look at the second half of the list, we used to scatter in Scripture here and there. But I’m looking at the list and this is pretty much sequential. It’s the second fifty that are almost all Scripture. That’s when we began going deep into the Scripture, choosing the Scriptures.
I told my children, especially as they got older, that I wanted them to develop their own lists when they have children, and to do this at a much earlier age. Because I remember, at times, Chloe and Carmel, the older ones, when we started this would say, “Can’t we memorize this?” And they would want to quote something that was not as personal to me. We would pick. Some of these were selected by the children for that reason.
But I have always advised them that that’s what you need to do with your children. You need to train up your children, not just with the Scriptures, but then with those passages that are important to you. Because, the principal reason I wanted my children to do this, and this ties to your acknowledgement of the importance of public speaking. You never know when you’re going to be called on to give a public speech, whether it is a public prayer, whether it is a presentation.
Sometimes you don’t have time to prepare. Sometimes you have a day to prepare. Sometimes you have a month to prepare. But what this memorization does is it gives you anchors. It gives you a starting point, a bridge. It gives you ideas of how you want to address any occasion in life.
You can imagine, with 100 different passages that we have memorized, there’s not a time when I have been invited to speak publicly that I can’t start from my list. In fact, I’ve got so many now. I’m like, “Oh, I could go this direction. Or I could go that direction.” It’s such an effective tool. It takes all the pressure off.
It’s not that your whole speech is memorized. It’s that, again, you’ve got these anchors and bridges to then relate it to whatever the specific scenario. So, with Michael’s 21st, I started off with the passage from Sir Thomas Browne, because it’s important for a young man who’s 21 years old. The essence of this is, “How do you touch pitch and not be defiled?” Let me quote Thomas Browne.
Nancy: Yes, would you quote it for us? I love the quote.
Kevin: So, Thomas Browne, for history, wrote this in 1686. It was not published until 1716, after his death. If you read it, it’s funny, because the words are spelled in old English. But it’s called On Christian Morals. It goes like this: “Live by old Ethicks,” and it’s spelled “E-T-H-I-C-K-S.” We spell ethics “E-T-H-I-C-S.”
“Live by old Ethicks and the classical Rules of Honesty. Put no new names or notions upon Authentick Virtues and Vices. Think not that Morality is Ambulatory; that Vices in one age are not Vices in another; or that Virtues, which are under the everlasting Seal of right Reason, may be Stamped by Opinion. And therefore though vicious times invert the opinion of things, and set up a new Ethicks against Virtue, yet hold thou unto old Morality; and rather than follow a multitude to do evil, stand like Pompey's pillar conspicuous by thyself, and single in Example of Virtue; since no Deluge of Vice is like to be so general but more than eight will escape; Eye well those Heroes who have held their Heads above Water, who have touched Pitch, and have not been defiled, and in the common Contagion have remained uncorrupted.”
Nancy: I love those words! Oh, I want to repeat them again! Can I?
Kevin: Yes, you may.
Nancy: Yes, yes. I will. “Those Heroes who have held their Heads above Water, who have touched Pitch, and not been defiled, and in the common Contagion have remained uncorrupted.” Oh, we need those words in this corrupted age, don’t we?
Kevin: Amen!
Nancy: Oh, we’re looking for young men and women, who, in the middle of all this corruption and evil and deception, will remain uncorrupted. I know all you lovely mothers out there, that you’re longing and your goal is that your children will grow up to be uncorrupted in this very corruptible world.
Kevin: One of the things I love about that particular passage was, at the end he says, “since no Deluge of Vice is like to be so general but more than eight will escape.” He’s talking about Noah and his family.
Nancy: Yes! That was powerful.
Kevin: Sorry. I tend to get emotional, as I did at Michael’s 21st. It’s so powerful because it’s true. The truth is so powerful. But I love when I can find passages of literature that are rooted in Scripture. Obviously, God created everything, so everything tells us something about God. God even uses the unrighteous to speak. He tells us that if we don’t praise Him, the rocks will cry out.
But I love even more finding passages of literature and music and art, poetry, prose, speeches, that understand, whether the speaker understood it, whether the writer understood it or not, that make reference to the created order. I find it compelling. Then you can weave it in and out and go to your direct passage of Scripture that says this is where he got this. And then weave it back into the day.
Nancy: I love what you did. You started with that quote, and then you said, “Michael, how does one touch pitch and not be defiled? How, in the common contagion, do you remain uncorrupted? In other words, how do you engage with the world without being corrupted by the world?” And then you went on to quote, what was the Scripture?
Kevin: Let me tell you one thing that I didn’t do that I wanted to do that night. I went to Hebrews. I had brought my Bible that night, but it was in the kitchen. So, Wes, in typical “Wes fashion” says “We’re going to do it this way.” And then he changed the plan on the spot. I had my Bible in the kitchen. I didn’t want to get up and make a scene by walking out.
But I wanted to lift up the Word. I made reference to Michael. I said, “How do you do this? Well, you start, you begin, and you end, and everything in the middle must be rooted on the foundation of the Word of God. I was going to hold up this old, messed-up Bible, well-worn, well-flagged too (He held up this Bible as we were doing the interview)! But I think I quoted, but forgive me, because I don’t have it on the tip of my tongue. I think I went to Hebrews 4:12-13.
Nancy: Yes! Yes! Yes! “For the Word of God. . .”
Kevin: “. . . is live and active, sharper than any double-edged sword. It penetrates through dividing even soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to Whom we must give account.”
Especially for our day, when we see what is happening in the world, we’re seeing more exposure of evil and wickedness than we ever have. I think that Scripture is being fulfilled right before our eyes every day, that God is exposing and fulfilling that very promise of Hebrews. He’s exposing everything that man has operated in secret.
My point to Michael was not only that we begin with the Scriptures, but to reveal to him through God’s Word, that what he is seeing, what he is experiencing, is the very operation of God’s Word in His world today.
Nancy: Yes. Amen! I love how you went on. You gave some more quotes and then you kept quoting Scripture. It was so great. I love this whole vision that you have for your family, to prepare them with the Scriptures and with great, important writings and quotes so they’ve got something to say. Not only have they got it for their own heart, and for their own life, to keep them from corruption, but they’ve got it ready to pass on to others.
Kevin: Can I offer something to encourage all of the parents who would listen to this? It’s always satisfying when you teach your children something, and perhaps when they’re younger, they don’t understand. Sometimes they rebel against it. Then when they get older, they come back and say, “I am so glad, Daddy, I’m so glad you taught me this.” Or “I’m so glad you made us do this.”
Well, Carmel, our second-oldest, actually used one of our memorization passages. It was part of the package that got her a significant scholarship for a fellowship that she did. If I may, it’s a very brief quote from Tolkien. I’ll say it, and then we’ll talk about it.
He says, “War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”
You understand the idea, right? People talk about war and peace, and they present it as two alternatives. You either love war and all the dangers of war, or you love peace at all costs, even at the cost of liberty and your soul.
But what Tolkien was acknowledging was that when we live in a fallen world, war is necessary to preserve what is righteous. We don’t love war. War is awful. It’s destruction of God’s created order. But there’s something bigger, and there’s something more important that’s going on. We don’t love war but we defend what is necessary. We defend what is true. That’s what I loved about that Tolkien quote.
It gave me such great privilege and honor, and it warmed my heart, to know that Carmel had used that as part of her presentation to get this fellowship that she got for a couple of years at Hillsdale. The proof is in the pudding. That was some of the pudding that was very satisfying to parents.
Nancy: Well, we will close, but I think we’ll do another session, because I’ve got some more questions to ask you about this. I trust you’ve been really blessed today, ladies.
“Father, we thank You that we’ve been able to talk about these things, and Lord, have the vision for our children, to prepare them, Lord. It’s not enough for them to just know things in their hearts and in their minds, but they need to know how to speak them forth. We pray that You will help us, Lord, to be able to impart this to our children, and raise them to be speakers of truth as they come forth from our homes. We ask it in the Name of Jesus. Amen”.
Kevin: Amen.
Bonnie: Amen.
Blessings from Nancy Campbell
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Transcribed by Darlene Norris * This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.