PODCAST TRANSCRIPT | EPISODE 176: HOW SOON CAN CHILDREN COME TO KNOW CHRIST?
LIFE TO THE FULL w/ Nancy Campbell
EPISODE 176 – How Soon can Children come to Know Christ?
Wendy Shaw joins me again today as we talk about raising children in the ways of God. Making the family meal table a place of fun and discussion times with the children. We also discuss at what age a child can come to know Christ.
Announcer: Welcome to the podcast, Life to The Full, with Nancy Campbell, founder and publisher of Above Rubies.
Nancy Campbell: We are continuing with Wendy Shaw today. Oh, there were so many things we needed to continue talking about. So, Wendy, it’s so wonderful to have you with us again today.
As you were sharing about your beautiful family and how they developed this beautiful musical band, I was thinking more and more of how it isn’t just passion. Nothing just happens, does it? They had to work hard, and practice hard, and put their minds to it. I think that’s such an example.
It’s amazing, because I was just reading the Word this last week. I read Daniel 2:21: “God giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding.” I read that and I thought, “Oh, my. That is so opposite to what we would do. We would think, ‘Oh, my, if someone is wise, why would You give them more wisdom. Someone who’s got lots of understanding, well, why do you have to give them more knowledge for?’”
But I see this throughout the Scripture, because we go to the New Testament, and we see the same thing. It's a Scriptural principle, that God gives more to those who have, and to those who don’t have He takes away.
We go over to Matthew 13:12: “For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance.” Wow. Actually, that word, ladies, is a word that I’m often telling you about. It’s the Greek word, perisseuo. It means “super-abundance, over the top, more that is necessary, to excel, to exceed, to increase, over and above.”
It’s an amazing word. It’s a word that is used often in the New Testament, because it’s actually the lifestyle of the kingdom of God, which is not normal, not status quo, but more. It’s more than. It's more than the normal. It’s increasing. It’s excelling. Abundant, over-abundant.
And here it’s used again. It says that the one who has, God will give more, even more abundance. “But whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.” Well, we look at that, and it doesn’t sound very fair, does it?
So, I’ve been thinking a lot about it, and I realized, yes, God looks upon our hearts. And He sees, He sees how we look at things, even listening to His Word, His precious Word. If we just take it lightly, “Oh, well, I guess I’d better read my Bible,” and we just read a few verses and we forget about it, we’re taking it lightly. Do you think God’s really going to give us revelation? No, I don’t think He is.
But if He sees us coming to His Word, and we are there to wait and listen to what He says to us, we’re looking, and we’re searching. We’re longing to hear God’s voice. Maybe we’ve got our journal ready, which I have every day, ready to write what God is saying. God sees our hearts and He says, "Yes, that person is going to take this seriously, what I’m going to say. I’ll give her some more.”
I believe it applies because it talks about in Mark 4. In each place this word comes again in Matthew, and then in Mark. Then over in Luke, and each time it’s slightly different. Mark 4:24-25: “Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken away even that which he hath.”
Here it’s in the context of hearing, hearing what God is saying to us, and listening. God will give to those who already have, because they’ve already been seeking, and searching, and longing. They’re getting truth from the Word. They’re living it. It’s their life. So, God will give them more!
But, if we take it lightly, we can expect to have nothing. We go over to Matthew 25. That is the passage about the talents. This is where I was thinking of you, Wendy. I’m talking away here. But what I’m saying, does this really relate in your family? And how you have raised your children?
Wendy: Oh, absolutely. I love everything that you were saying there. Those were the things that I thought about seriously. Actually, it reminds me of how I’ve never arrived. There’s always a place that God’s given us, that if we’re not actually using it and developing it, then it’s as. . . He wants to keep doing that and teaching it, and teaching it, and never stop. So, never just coasting, but always going forward. I tend to think, “Oh, I’ve got this down,” and then, uh oh! Be careful.
Nancy: I think one of my favorite Scriptures. . . Well, how can I say I have a favorite Scripture? Because every word is alive and active. Every word is life! But I love Proverbs 4:18: “But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.”
I always look upon the Christian life as a MORE AND MORE life. If we stop where we’re at, well, we’re finished. No, it’s more and more. There’s always more understanding and revelation. And God is waiting to give it to us, but He’s going to give it to those who He knows are going to take it. It’s precious to them. They’re serious about it.
But over here, in Matthew 25, this same principle comes up in the parable about the talents. This I’m reading from another translation now. Matthew 25:28-29: “Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance.” There’s perissueo again, that same amazing word.
“But from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” It’s interesting that the one who got five talents, he made five more. The one who got two, I think he made two more. The one who got one, he went and buried it.
But God called him an unprofitable servant. We go down in the chapter, and it says that those who develop their gifts and work on them, they were “good and faithful” servants. But the one who buries his talent, he was called abundance Most translations say, “lazy.”
It’s interesting, isn’t it, that it’s a very, very powerful principle that God has in His Word. That one, he was lazy. We can’t be lazy about things. God is not going to give more to those who are lazy. Good principle to teach our children, isn’t it? It really is. Yes. I’ve been thinking about that, and it’s very, very powerful.
OK, well! I’ve got to ask you a little bit more about your family. Tell me, Wendy, did you, how did you get to lead your children to Jesus? And did they come to the Lord when they were young? Tell us about that.
Wendy: Absolutely. Thank you for your insights on being profitable in what God’s given us. That's something I always want to keep in mind and try to teach that to our children, over and over still.
When we were evangelizing our children, we first wanted to make sure that we were good examples. And that they knew we were following Someone who we loved, and enjoyed serving, and not just formal religion that we were going through. They saw that we had a passion already for who Jesus is, and really wanted to form our lives and everything that we were doing with the structure of His Word.
That was something that we . . . everything that we did was through that lens. Is God’s will here? When they were young, there was a point where they all had a lot of questions. We encourage lots of questions. We love them. They had some really good ones and they always led to different discussions about personal relationships that they can have on their own with Jesus.
They were all very young when they wanted to do that on their own. Kevin would take them aside to make sure they understood. I would say afterwards, “You’re talking them out of it!” And he said, “No, I just want them to count the cost. I want them to understand that this is a disciplined life. This is not an easy path and that this is something, a big decision.
He wanted them to know that this was on their own, and not something that they knew we would be happy with. There was a very strong conviction that they would have on their own.
So, yes, they were all between five and seven years old, very early. We baptized them early. Sometimes in a church, sometimes in a little kiddy pool in our front yard. Just depends.
One child was saying, “Why do I have to obey?” I read them the story of the Ethiopian, “Look, there’s water.” She said, “Look, there’s my pool! My kiddy pool.” That was Macy. Kevin baptized her in our front yard.
So, we were talking about that, what do they understand? I feel like I’m going to believe them, what they say. Now I need to make sure that they’re discipled and they’re showing fruit. That’s how I would know if it was a true conversion, that they would be showing fruit.
Nancy: I think that’s beautiful, Wendy. I do believe myself that children growing up in a godly home where they’re hearing the Word of God daily, that they can be ready for salvation at a very early age.
I think of the Word, what does it say in Peter? 1 Peter 1:23: “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.” We come, we’re brought to Christ through the Word of God. This incorruptible seed, which is alive. What does it say here? It lives and abides forever.
Now, children who grow up in home where they’re hearing the Word of God every day, it’s going into their spirit. It’s building faith in them, and it’s preparing them to be so ready to embrace Jesus, and to embrace truth.
We go over to 2 Timothy 3:15. Here Paul is writing to Timothy. In fact, at the beginning of the book, in 2 Timothy 1:5: “When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.” Timothy’s faith came right down through his grandmother and his mother who were pouring the Word of God into him.
2 Timothy 3:15: “And that from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures.” Even “from a child, thou hast known the Holy Scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
So, the Word makes us wise to salvation, to understand salvation. A person growing up in an ungodly home and never hearing the Scriptures, they’re not ready. Often, later in life, they’ll hear the gospel, and they will receive Christ. But children in a home where they’re living under the anointing of God’s living Word can come to faith very, very early.
That word, “from a child,” in the Greek, is the word brephos. That word is used when Jesus was in the womb. The word brephos is also used of Jesus when He was a babe, lying in the manger. That word, “babe,” is brephos. So, this word is used of a babe in the womb. It’s used of a baby born, and, of course, as a little toddler, and a little child. It’s of a very young age.
So, I think the best time to start reading the Word to our children is when they’re in the womb. We don’t wait even until they’re born! And then, even when they’re born, and as a family we’re having family devotions together, mother’s just nursing her baby, and of course, the baby doesn’t understand a thing, but he’s hearing the Word. It’s already going into him.
I have a little quote here. One time I read the most beautiful book. It’s now out of print, but I think you can find it on the internet if you look it up. It’s How to Have a Family Altar, by Norman Williams.
In his book he writes: “A child of three months is too young to understand Galatians 5:22-23,” which is of course, talking about the fruit of the Holy Spirit. He says: “But he’s not too young to enjoy it. The greatest secret of shaping the life of the child from day one to six years of age is to make Galatians 5:22-23 the very spirit and life of your home. Then your child will literally feed on the love of God, both emotionally and spiritually. He will absorb that out of his environment, which will make him emotionally and spiritually healthy and strong.”
In another place he writes: “The parents’ great privilege during the first six years is to make this child acquainted with Christ as his maker and his loving friend. Before the child is three-and-a-half, he should be saved and know that Christ made him and loves him. The child should learn to lovingly speak the Name of Jesus, right along with the name of Daddy and Mommy.
“In the first six years of life, the child has a strong sense of the reality of the invisible. There is a strongly developed dimension of his being that senses the reality of the invisible, and that reaches out to experience and to know that reality. The failure to supply this need through the Word of God causes him to people the invisible with objects of his own imagination, such as fairies and gremlins and Santa Claus, and so on. They are a fantasy.
“God has given the child a strong sense of the reality of the invisible as a foundation for receiving the truth of Christ and His Word in the earliest and tender years. We should pray diligently for those parents who starve their children for the Word of God, and then feed them lies about fairies, witches, gremlins, and Santa Claus.” So true. “These are the devil’s lies and substitute for the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word.”
I’m thinking back to our own children. Most of them received Jesus into their lives about four years of age. I noticed last week you were saying how that at four years of age, you started your children practicing the violin. They got a little tiny violin. Well, if a child is old enough to begin practicing a violin, he is old enough to receive Jesus. Especially when he’s filled with this Word which has been constantly read out loud to him every day.
I love to encourage you young moms to be watching your precious children. When you see their tenderness and openness to Jesus and His Word, to give them that opportunity to ask Jesus to come into their lives. Because they can do it at such a tender age, and it can be so real.
I remember Evangeline’s testimony. I had just prayed with her brother. They were twins, Stephen and Evangeline. Then I went into Evangeline, and I said to her, “Stevie’s just asked Jesus to come into his life. Would you like to, too?”
I didn’t know what was going on in her life. But she told me later, especially even years later. She said, “It was as though there was this fight between heaven and hell.” She said, “Everything in me was fighting to say, ‘No! No! No! No! You must not!’” There was this enemy trying to stop her.
But then there was that beautiful tender voice of Jesus saying, “Come, I want to come in.” She said she had to fight, but eventually she said, “Yes, Lord Jesus. Come into my life.” She said at that moment, that moment, her life changed, at four years of age. She has never (you know Vange), I don’t think for one day of her life she has ever even had negative thought of turning away from walking with God. She has totally followed Him.
She was very scared of the owl outside her room. She says from that day, she was never scared of that owl again. She’s never been scared of anything since, as you know.
That was a real salvation. I know, as a young child, I was a little older than that, but I also fought with the powers of darkness. It shows you how the enemy is vying for our children. He wants our children. And the sooner they belong to Jesus, the better, because also, when Jesus comes into their lives, He dwells with them. We are now able to teach them more, in a greater way, how to walk with God.
OK, this is every child. Of course, even us, we deal with the flesh all the time. Our children are going to deal with the flesh. They’re going to get mad, and get rebellious, and get mad with their brother and sister. We can then say to them, “But Johnny, you have Jesus living within you now. He doesn’t get mad. He doesn’t scream and fight and kick. No, He loves your brother, and He wants to live His life in you. You’ve got to learn to say, ‘Yes’ to Jesus, and ‘No’ to the devil.”
They begin to learn. Often, we start learning when we’re adults. They learn now because now they have Christ helping them. He is in them. He wants to live His life in them. It is such a beautiful thing.
I think it’s something that we should encourage. I love to encourage you, lovely moms, especially when you’re having family devotions. You’re reading the Word, and there’s many times you sense the Presence of God on your children. It’s a beautiful time to ask them, at that time, “Would you like to ask Jesus into your life now?”
If the Presence of God is on them, and they’ve been living in the Word, they’re going to be ready to do that. It is so wonderful. So, of course, that’s important. The sooner the better!
But then, of course, all our lives we’re little by little teaching them how to walk with the Lord. How did you teach your children to grow stronger with the Lord?
Wendy: Well, a lot of what you’re saying we did with the Scripture, because it is powerful. There's so much power in God’s Word just being spoken out loud. We would do that often, as far as, in many ways.
We would always lead them back to the Bible if they raised any kind of argument or discussion on something, and there was a question about it. We would say, “Well, let’s look. Let’s see what God says. I don’t want to make something up for your life. I want you to be able to do this on your own when you’re older, so let’s start early, and see what God says we should do.”
Also, we started reading the Bible as a family every day, about 16 years ago. We made it a commitment to never miss a day. That could be, we were in the car, in a restaurant, in a hospital room, in many different states and places. Even if we had company over, we made sure to always get God’s Word spoken out loud.
I’ve underestimated sometimes what my children can understand. Even at an early age, they understand a lot more than I think they do. God, of course, in His Spirit, can always teach them through His Word, even better than I can. Just by them hearing it, even if they were in the other room, and someone said, “Go bring them in.” Just to have that spoken Word spoken over them, and they’ll remember it.
I’ve been surprised to find in different conversations we’ve had with our children, and they’ll bring out this random story from the Old Testament. We were like, “Wow! They remembered that!” Their minds are sponges. They soak everything in. Even if it doesn’t seem applicable right now, God can use that later on in their life and remind them of that spoken Word, to speak to them in a different situation.
Nancy: That is so wonderful. I love the challenge of your not missing a day. Doesn’t matter where you are, and in what circumstances. That is incredible. It reminds me of a wonderful family in New Zealand. This father of the family was an evangelist, actually preaching on end times events.
He had such a great teaching ability. He would come to churches. Often, he came to our church. He could preach for two hours non-stop, and everyone was spellbound. Even the children would be spellbound.
But their walk really was lived out in their lives. I remember one time they were staying with us. It came the next morning, they were off to go. They had to leave by a certain time. But I noticed that as they were going off, all the children were piled in the car, before he drove off down the drive, he said, “Children, OK, get out the Daily Light,” because he used to read that. That’s just Scriptures for every day.
He didn’t even start the car until they had read the Scriptures for the day, before they even started on their journey. Here they were, traveling not only all-over New Zealand, but they even travelled to other countries of the world. It didn’t matter what they were doing. Even if they were in hotels, or wherever, they read the Scriptures daily.
I think that is so good. It is the Scriptures really, that are our answer. I would find that in any situation I had with the children, I could always find God has an answer in His Word. The times too, when you see some sort of weakness in their lives, something which wasn’t right. “OK, what does the Scripture say about this?”
I’d not only have it maybe in our reading when we were as a family, but I would write them out in big words, and pin them up in the bathroom, or the toilet, or their bedrooms where they could read them. So, the Word is just going into them. There’s just nothing like the Word! Amen.
Oh, yes, Wendy, you’ve often said to me how you love that book that I wrote, The Family Meal Table and Hospitality. Sadly, that book is out of print. But because of you, I’m going to be reprinting it soon. Because you keep saying to me, “When is it coming back into print?” But tell me, why was it special to you? How did it affect you in the raising of your children?
Wendy: Thank you so much for that. That is one of my all-time favorite books, and I’ll tell you why. Because hospitality is a way to serve others in so many different ways. I feel like hospitality starts in the home, but it extends out. You can be hospitable in someone else’s house, or in a restaurant, or in a church.
Just the whole concept of it, it was something that really resonated with me. “Oh, I want to be good at this! I want to do it!” I remember the very first time that we had a couple over, a family over. It took me all day long to prepare. I was so nervous.
I was thinking, “Did I do this all right?” Now, we have so much experience, being in other people’s homes, and having people over is like, “Who wants to grab something from the freezer?” And it’s very fine.
But I loved your book because it gave practical examples to do. It reassured me that nothing has to be perfect. People just want to show up. Hospitality is basically serving them. In every situation where we’ve been in someone else’s house, I’ll take away, “Oh, I like how they did that,” and I’ll try to do it in my house.
Or “Oh, that made me feel awkward. I’m going to try to not do that.” I know that feeling now. That’s good. It was a good thing. Always feel it’s a reminder that it’s a good way to keep and train around the family meal table.
You had a lot of creative ways to do that. I brought the book with me. Yes, I’ll remind you that it was printed in 1999, so it’s time!
Nancy: Oooh, that’s a long time! Well, what happened, we just ran out, and the printer that was printing it, they went out of business. So, I have to start again. I couldn’t just say, “Oh, print another so many copies!” That was a bit of extra work, but I really am planning to do it, because so many people keep calling for it.
Wendy: I remember when I got my hands on this book, I loved it so much that I bought a whole bunch of copies for my friends at that time. They could have it, too. I have so many dog-ears and highlights in here. I have this one from 2012 where I had written out different children to bless on each day, and the music night, and a color night.
It's been so fun to use this as a springboard to be creative on my own, too. To think, “Oh, that gives me a good idea!” It’s out of print, but it’s not out of date.
Nancy: Of course, you can’t get it just yet, but you will be able to in the future. You don’t have to wait for the book. You can start being hospitable now. I think, even before you begin to be hospitable, which is a Biblical concept, you know. The early church, that was their lifestyle. It was hospitality. They met in each other’s homes daily (Acts 2:46, 47).
But I think even before you do that, you’ve got to get it going in your own home. The meal table needs to be a very special place for your family. You want to bring people to something that is special to you. So, begin making your mealtimes so precious and wonderful.
In that book, I know, I gave lots of ideas I found when I was raising our children. At least once a week, sometimes I do it more, I would think of something different or special to do at the meal table.
I do have a goal. It’s a quote that I heard one time, to “Make every meal a love affair.”
I love to do that for every meal. But then, I love to make special meals, too, especially when the children were growing. I love to do special things. I know that you said, “Color Night.” Don’t children love that? When they get older, they get past that. But when they are young, oh! They think that’s so fun.
I think we went through every color of the rainbow. I would say to the children, “All right, children! Tonight, is red night! I’m going to make a red meal for you. But I want you to all go back to your rooms and find clothes that are all red. You’ve all got to come out when it’s time, and everybody’s got to be dressed in red!”
And I would have red plates and I would cook food that was red. We’d have beets, and we’d have mashed potatoes, which were colored with red food coloring. You know, everything we could find that was red. red juice, and red everything. Maybe some little gifts that were red. But the children, they think that’s fun. And it’s very simple, but it’s such fun.
Then, other times, I would have to spend time on this, and I would think of little rhymes or little couplets that rhymed. I would write them about the children. Then I’d make these little name cards for them and put them on their places with the little rhyme or couplet, or four lines of rhyming, just about them. They would think it was so special.
Then we’d have other nights where we’d do special things. What were some of the special things you liked to do? Can you remember them?
Wendy: Yes. As I was going through this book, I was thinking, “Oh! All these things that we did a lot with our older, and now, because they’re all going out and about in different places. . .
Nancy: You have such different seasons in your life, don’t you? I do encourage you, when you’re in this season, lovely moms, and all your children are around you, OK, they’re not quite to that older group, where they’re all going out to their various ways. Or you’ve just got all these little younger ones, who are too young yet to do these special things.
When you’ve got this middling time, and they’re all there, can I please ask you, don’t just let it go by? Don't get so busy. You’re out doing this and that, and you don’t do special things. Because this is the season to do very special things with your children at your meal table.
You don’t have to go out and pay to go to some entertainment. You can do things that are so special that they’ll be memories for a lifetime. So, make the most of these days. You were going to share something?
Wendy: I’m so glad you said that because I need to make more time for this for all the rest that are still at home. Because we get so busy, coming and going. I want to still make it fun and special. Well, I know that encouragement is big for us. You all do this for your birthdays. It’s great. It's where everyone goes around and says something encouraging about the other person. I love doing that. That’s something that we try to do a lot.
I think that a lot of this is that we made it into our lives. We automatically just do it. We encourage questions. We ask, we have discussions. This is just who we are now. I just need to add those fun things in because I'm listening to this, thinking, “Oh! Yeah.”
Nancy: Because this season changes, and the older children are getting involved in things, you can forget. I need to be reminded too. I love it. If you’ve got a big family, you need to take it one by one. “OK, Sarah, tonight I want you to bring a poem to the family table, and to read it. Share with us why you like it.” It gives the whole family an appreciation for poetry and things like that.
“Or some quote from a wonderful book you’ve read.” Get them to do that. Those are good things to do. You can think of so many thousands of things. I’ll have to get this book out for you again!
But anyway, our time has gone again. Thank you, Wendy. It's been so good to share with you, to hear about your family. Thank you.
“Father, we do thank You so much for families. We pray that You will save us from getting taken up with so much around us that, Lord, we don’t see that our most precious thing we have is right in front of us. It is our family.
“Lord, I pray that You will show each precious mother new ideas, that You’ll put in her mind different things she can do at her family table to make it exciting and wonderful and meaningful for her children.
“Lord God, we thank You that family is the very first thing that you instigated into this world. Before church, before government, before every organization on this earth, Lord, it was family. Help us to, Lord, keep putting family first, Lord God, because this is Your priority. We ask this in the Name of Jesus. Amen.”
Blessings from Nancy Campbell * www.aboverubies.org
Transcribed by Darlene Norris * This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
NEW ABOVE RUBIES MAGAZINE
The new Above rubies magazine, #99 is in the printers. Look out for it coming. If you are not on the mailing list, send your name and address to me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and we will be happy to send it to you
This is the book I mentioned. Many of you will already use it, but if you don’t have it, it is a great boon to have in your home.
DAILY LIGHT ON THE DAILY PATH
Plus CREATIVE WAYS TO READ GOD’S WORD TO YOUR CHILDREN
The most popular Bible devotional for the last 150 years!
It’s your answer to Family Devotions with your Family! It has Scriptures compiled on a certain theme for every morning and every evening of the year. No more hassle! No more wondering where to read in the Bible! All you do is go to the date and the Scriptures are waiting for you to read.
Plus, this special copy of THE DAILY LIGHT has creative ideas for each month on how to make these Bible times with your children exciting and full of life.
They will keep your children “on their toes!”
Ears alert! No more bored faces.
Only eager, happy hearts, hearing and receiving God’s living Word that will change their lives and prepare them for life.
Go to: http://tinyurl.com/CreativeIdeasToReadBible